Episode 80
· 01:00:01
What's up? I'm Ron Rapatalo, and this is the Ronderings podcast. Around here, I sit down with guests for real, unpolished conversations
Ron Rapatalo:about the lessons and values that shaped them.
Ron Rapatalo:And I'll be right there with you, sharing my own take, laughing at myself when I need to,
Ron Rapatalo:and wondering out loud about this messy thing called life.
Ron Rapatalo:Glad you pulled up a chair. Let's get into it.
Ron Rapatalo:What's up, everyone? It's Ron. Today's Ron DeRing conversation is one that hit me on every level. Identity, courage, leadership, and the sacred responsibility of raising the next generation. My guest is Chris Farley, mixed race woman of color with Korean and indigenous roots, first gen college grad, single mother by choice to twin boys, and a lifelong disruptor of systems that were never built for us.
Ron Rapatalo:From leading one of the largest protests in Ohio after nine eleven, to being put on a no fly list as a college student for standing up for civil liberties, to serving the Obama White House advancing protections for AANHPI communities, nail salon workers, and native Hawaiian sovereignty, Chris's career has been defined by willingness to walk toward the unknown and do the next right thing even when the path isn't lit. We talk about our seven years leading SIECUS during some of the most volatile moments in our country. Her bold move to Canada for the safety of her sons, what it really means to lead with transparency, emotional regulation, purpose when you're carrying the weight of community on your shoulders. This is a story about courage, alignment, and transition. Let's get into it.
Ron Rapatalo:Hey, friends. Before we get started, I wanna share something that's been a big part of my own journey. Two years ago, I published my book Leverage. That experience cracked something open for me. I saw how publishing isn't just about pages, about owning your story, sharpening your voice, and amplifying your impact.
Ron Rapatalo:The part that meant the most, readers reached out to me to say they felt seen. That's when I knew this work mattered. I loved it so much I cofounded Leverage Publishing Group with friends who would make know this world inside and out. Now we help leaders, entrepreneurs, and change makers turn their ideas into books and podcasts that actually move people. Got a star in you, and I know you do.
Ron Rapatalo:Let's chat. Find me on LinkedIn or at leveragepublishinggroup.com, because the world doesn't just need more books, it needs your book. Alright. Let's get to today's episode. Peace.
Ron Rapatalo:Rondering's universe, I have another treat for us. My dear friend, Leah Cruse, previous Ronderings guest, when I put the bat signal out that I needed other amazing multi hyphenated leaders who practice sacred syncretism, introduce me to my new friend, Chris Harley. Chris Harley is on the mic. How are doing, Chris?
Chris Harley:I'm great. How are you?
Ron Rapatalo:I am good. We are recording this the day before the Thanksgiving break starts. I am excited. I have like, I'm on Bravo. I've got my glass of wine here to make sure.
Chris Harley:I didn't know we were doing that.
Ron Rapatalo:I know. I you know, you're all you don't want to wait. It's 05:00 that we're recording. This is time. It is fucking bad now.
Ron Rapatalo:Oh, man. I know. Sorry. I should have, like bad host. Bad host.
Ron Rapatalo:Well, I'm excited to have you on. Remind me and remind remind the audience. Dawn, this is fucking no. Remind me how you and Leah met again. It was through grad like, UChicago.
Chris Harley:Yeah. We were in University of Chicago's public policy Masters of Public Policy program together in Chicago.
Ron Rapatalo:Nice. Look at that. And still continue to be friends. I love it.
Chris Harley:I know. So it's one of those things where you start counting back, you're like, oh my god. I've known this person for like fifteen years. It's wild.
Ron Rapatalo:Yeah. It gets wild when you start like counting like when you've known someone for for that long. I hung out with a very good friend of mine from my NYU days who now is a writer, lives in Seattle, he visits town because he still has family in New Jersey.
Ron Rapatalo:And so he brought his son into town. We had dinner last weekend. It was like, I've known him for over twenty five years. I'm like, how the hell did twenty five years pass? Yeah.
Ron Rapatalo:And then he found a picture of us as he's been cleaning his parents' apartment and was doing karaoke in the early two thousands. I was like, oh my god. Wow. Probably singing a little bit of a prayer at the top of our lungs because that's what you do Yeah. At 2AM in K Town.
Chris Harley:Naybong Right? Is where it's at.
Ron Rapatalo:Yeah. Well, Chris, let's get into it. What's your story?
Chris Harley:So my name is Chris Harley, and I am a mixed race woman of color. I identify as being both a child of immigrants. My mother is from Korea and part of the indigenous community. My father's family is Piscataway Kanhoye, which are the indigenous people of Maryland.
Ron Rapatalo:Okay.
Chris Harley:So I'm a born and raised Marylander who grew up in a very like blue collar working class sort of background. And I Let's see. I am a first generation college student. I attended Oberlin College, which is in Ohio. It's a very liberal school, which is where I really learned a lot of my understanding of social justice and civil rights issues.
Chris Harley:Then I, as I mentioned, went on to get a master's of public policy from the University of Chicago. I'm a single mother by choice. I have two twin sons. And I've spent fifteen years working in the nonprofit and government sector. I'm trying to figure out how to make policy work for the most marginalized and underserved communities, primarily in the Asian American, Native Hawaiian, Pacific Islander population.
Chris Harley:I'm really looking at, you know, how to advance civil rights and social justice issues in that space. But I'm a policy general, so I've worked on like a crazy wide range of issues. And so I was able to work for President Obama's White House Initiative on Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders, how to help government meet the needs of underserved NHPI communities. And then I've spent the last seven years working as the president and CEO of a national nonprofit organization called SIECUS, Sex Ed for Social Change. So we were advocating for sex education as a foundation for advancing gender justice and sexual and reproductive freedom.
Chris Harley:I resigned from that position in September 2025 and moved to Canada with my family. I'm now starting a business as a consultant, is a leadership and equity and impact consultant in Canada. And currently working with an organization called the Korean Canadian Scholarship Foundation that is in the process, which is really a great organization that's trying to think about how to kind of meet the needs of young people in Canada who are navigating a really difficult early career start. And so we're launching a new leadership program and trying to help them move to be a staff led organization instead of a volunteer based organization.
Ron Rapatalo:That is a very big transition to make when you go from one to the other. Yeah. Governance and all those things and what this leadership yeah. It's a big move. Well, let me put you back in a way back machine because I'm always fascinated when those of us have been in social justice.
Ron Rapatalo:My question for you is, was there a particular anecdote, uh-huh moment, story, lesson that got you to say, I know I need to be in Soldiers of Justice. I'm wondering if this happened at Oberlin, this happened through your parents, or sometime in between.
Chris Harley:Yeah. No. I joke that, you know, my my parents were so excited to send me to college as a first generation college student. And then I went to Oberlin and came back like a crazy radical.
Ron Rapatalo:Think Oberlin's reputation. I'm gonna tell them that.
Chris Harley:Yeah, no. I mean, know, I mean, Oberlin It's so interesting because I think that the things that we were talking about in Oberlin, I remember it was like, we're trying to fight the white supremacist capitalist patriarchy. There's heteronormative within there, too. And it was like this whole thing, right? And really, the whole exercise was like, as college students, how could we figure out how to live these values where we were not oppressing one another across all of these different things?
Chris Harley:And then, you you know, go out and you start working in spaces, and you're not having those conversations any longer. Then more recently, right, like we're starting to have these conversations around race and gender and gender identity and sexism and patriarchy and all of that. And I'm like, oh, yeah. Like, I remember these conversations from when I was in college. But it was being a student activist, and it was trying to understand I mean, my whole interest in going to Oberlin was that I wanted to be in a campus where there was a lot of diversity and I was being exposed to people who had different backgrounds and experiences And than then once there, right, like trying to figure out how to navigate those relationships respectfully was like the big overarching exercise of student activists.
Chris Harley:And, you know, I mean, it was a very rich time of like exploration and debate. And now, you know, it's I'm excited that in our broader society, some of those conversations are happening as well.
Ron Rapatalo:Yeah. Was that value just shared about why you chose Oberlin something your parents explicitly valued too in the way you grew up? Or is that something that just kind of found you or some somewhere in between? Curious.
Chris Harley:Well, again, so as a first generation college student, we didn't know about colleges. So when I was starting to look at schools, like my mother knew about Ivy Leagues and she was like, I want you to go to an Ivy League. And I was like, I'm not going to get into an Ivy League. And then my father only knew the very large universities that he had football teams or basketball teams that were on So it was like Florida State or Harvard, right? It was a very weird spread.
Chris Harley:And for me, I was very afraid of getting lost on a big campus. Didn't think I could make it to an Ivy League school. And so I was really kind of on my own just trying to, like, find places. And what happened was my friend from high school was interested in Oberlin's conservatory, so she had a brochure considering going to their conservatory. Then in the pamphlet, they're talking about being the first school to admit African Americans.
Chris Harley:That was not a historically black college. They admitted Japanese Americans during World War II. They admitted women. So I was like, oh, right? Like, I want to go to a place like this where, you know, they're pushing back against social norms and expanding the ability to have folks from all different spaces.
Chris Harley:And that was really like the way that they promoted themselves. So I was very interested in that, and I'm just very lucky that they accepted me.
Ron Rapatalo:Yeah. Hearing your student activist story very much, like, I think aligns with mine. Although I would say I did not pick NYU because I wanted to be a student activist. It sort of found me, but the undercurrents of my social justice and student activism started kind of at Stuyvesant, although I wasn't really super involved. I remember getting you know, I took AP American history.
Ron Rapatalo:The one course that I took was a class then called prejudice persecution, which was Oh. Taught by the great mister Donnan, when think he's still alive, amazing teacher who taught about the history of genocide of the world. And I think when I got that understanding and then my own lived experience as a Filipino American who grew up in lots of different communities in New York City kinda knew the rainbow coalition of people. Yeah. It's like, so, Pat, this is like, wait.
Ron Rapatalo:This shit's been happening for this is not just slavery in America? This is oh. Oh. It started to spark this real interest in, how do I get involved in doing better than when I went to NYU, which was by virtue of it was the best school that accepted me. I had, like, Ivy lust, unfortunately, as a Stuyvesant kid.
Ron Rapatalo:And so, you know, rejected by three schools, waitlisted by a fourth, didn't get off the waitlist. But NYU was very generous of the package, and it was staying close to home. And, you know, there's something about going to school in the nineties. Like, when I wax poetica, like, growing up in the nineties as a college student in New York City. Mhmm.
Ron Rapatalo:The, like, nineties hip hop and r and b, that that that era. Right? Nineties NYU was still, dare I say it, a little gritty. It was still a local university university centered on New York City. Right?
Ron Rapatalo:It wasn't this big global university. That's the dream school everyone wanted to get into. Right? Which I get because I'm on the alumni association board. So I talk I get it.
Ron Rapatalo:Right? I'm I'm an ambassador representative of those things. And that NYU was so ripe as a young person to make change. And I think my proudest moment, which I'll ask you in a second of your time in Oberlin, was fighting for the creation of the Asian Pacific American Studies Program and Institute Yeah. Which almost thirty years later still exists.
Ron Rapatalo:Yep. That that's one of my biggest legacies being a student leader at NYU is like that. We fought for that.
Chris Harley:Mhmm.
Ron Rapatalo:Literally.
Chris Harley:Yeah. We were also fighting for, you know, different studies program. What we ended up getting was a comparative American studies program that the Okay. School guess, I forget what the council was called that, but the, like, professors approved my senior year. Have some And what's interesting to me is having been a part of that era of fighting for these kinds of educational programs on college campuses, realizing that somehow I worry that they have still failed to help young people today connect the dots on those intersections of how oppression manifests with more complexity that represent and reflect our actual realities.
Chris Harley:And so I have some I'm curious about it. I don't have any answers about it, but it's just a place where I'm like, I feel like something didn't land the way that we anticipated.
Ron Rapatalo:Yeah.
Chris Harley:But my greatest, what I feel like was my greatest success was actually I led a interfaith POC led, know, people of color led protest against the sort of post nineeleven assault on the civil liberties and entry into the Iraq War. And at the time, I always think about it. It was so funny. There was the kind of like socialist organization on our campus was organizing, and it was kind of very economic based. And I was like, actually, though, what's happening is that Muslim and brown people are being targeted by this country that is focusing on us as enemies, and the impact across Muslims and South Asians and all of this really needs to be at the center of it.
Chris Harley:And so I came into the meeting because I was sort of unattached to any of the students of color organizations. And then I sat there and I was like, No, no, no, no. This isn't it. And then I sort of took it over and made it into this different event. And they got really mad at me, but it was the largest protest that happened in Ohio Oh, wow.
Chris Harley:Where we had an interfaith representation and folks of color from across the community that all came together. And as a result, I ended up on the no fly list out of out of Ohio. So every time I fly out of the airport, I will, you know, be randomly searched. Oh my god. That is wow.
Chris Harley:So, you know, I feel like but for, you know, we would have had a completely different conversation.
Ron Rapatalo:Yeah. I mean, isn't that sometimes, unfortunately, the price you have to pay for justice and to be able to push for things, right? Is that Oh yeah. That's great. You're still
Chris Harley:on the no flight. Mean, I've been flown out of Ohio for a while, but like, as of like ten years after I had left the campus, I would still get pinged when I would fly out of that airport. So I was like, oh, That's
Ron Rapatalo:so odd. Oh Lord, Jeez. So walk us through let me jump to then your time because I'm really fascinated to hear about the AANHPI work you led at the White House under the Obama administration. Right? But then I fast forward, I have two dear friends that went to Stuyvesant with.
Ron Rapatalo:My friend, Joanne Kwong, is on the commission for, hopefully, the museum. I don't know if it's really gonna happen or not, but I know they've started having stakeholder conversations about the creation of a Smithsonian like national Asian American museum. But I wanna hear about your experience and what you did and what you learned from that.
Chris Harley:Yeah, so I was just very lucky. I feel like my whole career is sort of based on a lot of fortunate circumstances.
Ron Rapatalo:Okay.
Chris Harley:But I had been working on what we were calling the nail salon issue, which is basically where it was an economic justice campaign where we realized that Korean and Vietnamese women in particular who were working in nail salons were being exposed to toxins that were causing reproductive harm other cancer results. And because the reason these immigrant women were entering into the nail salon space was, one, there was lower barriers to entry. They could make a decent living. And though, it fell outside of typical workforce protections because they were seen as independent contractors even though they were working in these salons. And so they were not under the scope of the employment law.
Chris Harley:And so we as part of that campaign, I worked with the White House initiative to convene federal agencies, OSHA, I think was it the EPA? There was a couple of agencies that we convened, the FDA, to look at what was happening and try to prevent these harms. And we were able to get actually some enforcement rulings that are it's pretty significant because it takes it can take decades to get those. So we were able to get some rulings. But as a result, I was introduced to folks within the White House initiative on Asian Americans And and Pacific this is basically an initiative that comes out of the White House.
Chris Harley:So it oversees the work of all of the federal agencies. And the goal was really to improve access to the federal government for Asian Americans, Native Hawaiians, and Pacific Islanders. And at the time, it was led by Karen Ahuja, who is just an amazing, incredible leader. And she invited me onto the staff to work on health policy. And this was right when the Affordable Care Act had just been approved.
Chris Harley:They were about to launch the enrollment program. And so we were in a position where we knew that Asian Americans, Native Hawaiians, Pacific Islanders were not one of the target populations that were going to be enrolled. And so my maneuverings was to create a campaign where we could support the 4,000,000 A and HPI folks that we knew were uninsured and needed access, but needed access in language, right, that would help them navigate a government system that they weren't familiar with. And so we worked with a bunch of agencies to do that. And my work continued from there.
Chris Harley:And so we thought we were just trying to figure out how to make sure that the government agencies that are placed in communities would recognize and engage with local populations who had specific kinds of needs, right? There's refugee populations in Atlanta. There's Hmong folk in Louisiana, right? Like, where are our people, and are you connecting with them and helping them set up businesses or engage with programs and things like this? And so that was the role that we engaged in.
Chris Harley:I specifically worked on the Affordable Care Act enrollment process. And then I also led a bunch of other things, but like engaging with native Hawaiians because this was actually the first time under the Obama administration where we were trying to figure out how to codify sovereignty rights for native Hawaiians because at that time it was only in legislation, but it wasn't actually codified in a government government relationship. Similar with Pacific Islanders, we've got territories out in The Pacific where there's some rights, there's not, like it's unclear. We have treaty agreements. And so trying to get clarity for folks out there of what resources are available to you.
Chris Harley:So it's really like trying to think about this all of government strategy for making the system work for folks who are often ignored.
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Ron Rapatalo:That's what the team at Books That Matter is all about. Head to booksthatmatter.org and get some feedback in your ID or manuscript. Don't sit on it any longer, your book could be exactly what the world needs. I can't help but, like, not only wonder, but think that your mixed race identity being Yes. Korean and native informs a lot of like your ability to, like, I think, be proximate and see equity in this work.
Ron Rapatalo:Right. So talk to us a little bit about that because I think it it creates the it's a unique posture in the space. Right? I don't Yeah. I meet a lot of mixed race Asians.
Ron Rapatalo:With me, a mixed race Asian who also is mixed with indigenous might be able to put you on a room of five people. Right? Although there's more. I'm like, sort of being snot. Right?
Ron Rapatalo:But, like, it that but that that like dawn on me is like your lens of seeing these things, like what you did in Oberlin, what you've done in the White House, you see things in such a different way because of the way you had to grow up and your, your parents' identities and being in you, right?
Chris Harley:Yeah. I think that that is very true. One of the things that's interesting about my father's side of the family is that we are very mixed race. The more that we do genealogy tests and whatnot, we realize that we've got Africana people in our family, free Blacks, escaped slaves. We've got poor white folks who are tenant farmers.
Chris Harley:We've got indigenous folks. It's very mixed. And I have there's a cohort of cousins where there's five of us, all girls, and we grew up together. And we don't look anything alike, right? There was like, here's the Asian girl.
Chris Harley:Here's the Black girl. Here's the Black girl. And we're like, We're cousins. People were like, You're lying. And what that means is that when I see folks, I'm like, Oh, you look like family to me.
Chris Harley:I recognize that they don't see me as family, but I see them as kin. And what it also has done is meant that I can understand sort of the immigrant lens. Right? Like, mom is very representative of Korean immigrants. Like, study hard, work hard, nose to the grindstone, like this sort of thing, right?
Chris Harley:Boop, boop, boop. On my father's side of the family, there is not a culture of, like, academic engagement, right? Because what we have is generational trauma of being denied access and entry, and so why even bother, right? And so I'm first generation because my grandfather didn't finish fifth grade, right? Like, it wasn't it didn't wasn't valuable for my father to go to college.
Chris Harley:And it was more effective to get a trade that he could, you know, take care of his family. And so I see both of those sides. They're valid reactions to the conditions in which people are coming to this country or have, you know, been in this country and are navigating these injustices. And so, you know, I think it gives me an opportunity to see harm from a I tend to see it from the broadest lens rather than from a narrow lens. And so Yeah.
Chris Harley:I think that also contributes to why I engage in policy work, because I see these harms happening kind of like more globally. And so then I want to try to solve the problem up here versus in the kind of like micro individual context.
Ron Rapatalo:Makes sense. Yeah. You kind of got into, like, a follow-up question of, like, how did you fall into policy work? Right? And I think you started answering it with, like, just your proximity and your relationships and the way you grew up.
Ron Rapatalo:Like, it was normal for you to see this is the term that I use being a nineties kid. Right? And the way I grew up is, like, I have a united colors of Benetton of friends and, like, leaders and acquaintances. Right? It's just something I've always held in high esteem that though when I took my own genealogy test sometime back, was like, boy, this is really plain vanilla.
Ron Rapatalo:It just says I'm Asian. Okay. That's not really a fucking surprise. Hello. Right?
Ron Rapatalo:Thank you, Captain Obvious, genealogy test. And yet, I would say a lot of the way I grew up in New York City, in Brooklyn, in Queens, the I just was around so many different people. And so I always people always joke with like, oh, you're like, you sort of know everybody. And, like and I think the reason why I have that reputation is because there's a sort of cultural fluidity, like, an an ability to, like, see the commonality in people because I've had so many reps of, like, experiencing that for, like, I was yay tall. That's all I knew.
Ron Rapatalo:Mhmm. Right? And so that's the world I wanna experience over and over and over and over again. Right? And so in my own, like, being in in social justice, right, I'm often in, these more global things, these like multiracial coalitions, like large Asian American, like, I think when things become a little too homogeneous, I struggle a bit more.
Chris Harley:I agree. I'm, yeah, I'm very similar.
Ron Rapatalo:Yeah.
Chris Harley:I also this is, you know, kind of going back to my unformed, fully formed idea, but, you know, when I was learning about racial justice and white supremacy in college, I really read a lot of Audre Lorde, who talks about, right, the pillars of white supremacy being imperialism, slavery, and colonization. And for me, that's also like a foundational lens through which I think about these things. Like, you know, again, it's like not necessarily so focused on which pillar, because in my mind, it's all come the pillar is just the strategy to get to the goal of white supremacy, right? So this is would say this over the last couple of years when sort of the Moms for Liberty groups were coming up and they were attacking schools for honest racial history and sex education and anything that was like pride or, oh my god, trans kids are using bathrooms, right? The pearl clutching was, again, for me, it was like, they don't care what the entry point is.
Chris Harley:They're just trying to get a foothold in this community to try to dismantle the types of equity and inclusion programs that schools have started to do to create safer environments for all of our kids. But they're going to just throw whatever spaghetti against the wall in whatever community to see which sticks, to see where the foundation is the weakest so they can topple that pillar and collapse the whole thing. I think you've seen that play out. And so this is where I get a little frustrated when people get sort of narrowly focused on the specific pillar. I mean, I understand why that happens.
Chris Harley:I shouldn't say I get frustrated, but it does create the space for the wobble to happen and the collapse to happen. And so that is where I want to go back to these kind of, comparative American studies or Asian American studies, these programs in schools that were supposed to teach young people how to understand these systemic issues that were causing the disparities that our communities are still addressing. I wonder and am concerned that that relationship between each pillar and how they prop up these systems wasn't as maybe explored and where we have that weakness happening. And so we have these spaces where our solidarity with each other was weaker than it should have been. And so we are seeing that get eroded.
Ron Rapatalo:Mhmm. Boy, that that's a lot to digest, right?
Chris Harley:I know. I'm sorry.
Ron Rapatalo:No. That's okay. No. But it's good. Right?
Ron Rapatalo:Because I think you offered, like, you're thinking about it, don't yet have a solution, but maybe some incredible thought bubbles will come up during the course of the rest of our combo. Let me fast forward this. Right? Because you Okay. Then became the executive director, if I remember correctly, of a sex ed nonprofit.
Ron Rapatalo:So talk to me a little bit about how you got to that work and what that legacy has looked like for you.
Chris Harley:Yeah. So again, sort of happenstance. A friend to friend was on the board and was like, hey, we're looking for an interim ED. Do you want the role? And I was like, sure, I can do it.
Chris Harley:Then and at the time, I was like, I am not an expert on sex education, so I don't I'm not interested in the role. But what happened was the organization was actually in this point of trying to shift into being more of a public policy organization that could speak from the intersections. And so then I was like, oh, Okay.
Ron Rapatalo:I That could sound do just like you.
Chris Harley:Right. And I was like, oh Taylor brought back all this Overland teachings where I was like, the intersections that we're talking about are gender, race, sexual orientation, right? In this conversation around class and access. At the time, it was actually right when the Brett Kavanaugh confirmation hearing was happening. And so the Me Too movement was going on, right?
Chris Harley:I thought, how different would things be if young people were just universally taught about consent? Then this conversation that we're having around like boys will be boys and whatever in a Supreme Court justice confirmation space wouldn't be the conversation. And so I said, Okay, I think I can do this. And so I spent seven years there. And it was very interesting, right?
Chris Harley:Like there would be times where we were doing trainings on microaggression. And I remember somebody came out and they were like, You know, that was a really great experience, but I'm a sex educator. Like, why do I need to know about race? And I was like, Oh, okay. So this is, okay.
Chris Harley:So we gotta, like
Ron Rapatalo:Wow. Someone at that is bananas.
Chris Harley:Because because they didn't understand. Right? And so you're like, as a racialized person, our sexuality is so at the forefront of how government is trying to control our reproduction, our population size, our you know? And so I'm like, okay. So we have to make sure, right, and connect those dots because it's important for teachers and educators and folks that are engaging with young people to be able to help them understand that stuff.
Chris Harley:So we were putting out those kinds of resources and facilitating conversations with our partner organizations around how to engage in this conversation. This was also, you know, I started about ten months before the pandemic hit, and then it was Black Lives Matter and conversations around race and capitalism and work life balance. And so all of these things were happening at the same time. And it was just really important to be able to hold space where people were going through it and understand how to create a forward path so that we could keep moving forward and come out on the other side. And so we were able to, and when I left the organization, the one thing that I feel the most proud of is that staff thanked me for creating an environment where they could be seen and heard and be their full selves and still hold conversations around personal politics versus organizational politics and navigating coalition spaces in a way that felt authentic.
Chris Harley:And so that to me, given the circumstances under which I was leading, feels like maybe one of the best most important things that I was, accomplishments that I had in that space.
Ron Rapatalo:The theme that I want to elevate here and hearing of your experience in leading from your time at Overland through your, this, your sex ed nonprofit that you led is this intersectional proximate leader that you have been becoming. And that's hard, right, because, you know, one might say, well, I don't have Chris's experience, I can't, I'm not gonna be all these things and, and I'll have her life experience, and I often will tell folks, like, terms of my experience, I'm like, I couldn't give you my fifty years of life experience because that's a that's such a unique journey. So I'm wondering from your lens, right, if we were to, like, think about this from a policy perspective or from a organizational work culture perspective, how would you advise orgs that want to build these kinds of, like, work cultures? Right? Because I think at the end of it all, when I think of all my, like, social impact friends, they wanna do this.
Ron Rapatalo:Mhmm. Right? But it's I think the take that I often have is the blessing of our lived experience, Chris, which maybe growing up didn't always feel like a blessing to be clear. Didn't always feel like it's just like, then why is it I don't fucking fit in any of these spaces? This is really annoying.
Ron Rapatalo:Like, I'm this, but like I'm too this, I'm too little. Like I'm just like, what the fuck? Like, yo, this isn't. But as I got older, wait, this means I fit into every space, but it also means I don't really fully fit in unless I create my own space. And so, because I've had to create my own spaces, I sort of have this feel about like what I want out of it.
Ron Rapatalo:So I wanted to put that to you with like, what do you advise to ED senior who are like struggling with like, how the fuck do I create these spaces? Because I want to, but I don't know how, or I'm not sure the way I'm leading is the right way.
Chris Harley:I mean, there's so much to say about that. I mean, first
Ron Rapatalo:That's of a whole other episode. I know I'll bring you back on.
Chris Harley:Mean, even right now, I sit in so much impostor syndrome. Like I said, as a first generation, I've been first generation since I was 18. Every space I've moved into has been completely untouched ground. And so I come into many spaces being like, I don't know if I can do it, but let me try. Then I'm successful, which is fantastic.
Chris Harley:But it's So one, I think that is just I understand that sort of hesitancy of like, I don't know. What I will also say is I think it is really important for people to be very comfortable with their own identity, right? So for me, as a mixed race person, it took me a long time to understand where I fit in. Like, I didn't know things about Korean immigration and Korean history. My mother didn't speak about it when I was growing up.
Chris Harley:I was racialized as being Asian, but I didn't know anything about it. I couldn't speak the language. I wasn't really involved in Korean American communities growing up. And so I went through a process in college of going to doing a study abroad in Korea so I could meet and engage with the Korean Koreans. But what I ended up really engaging was the Korean diaspora.
Chris Harley:So folks from all over the world who were adoptees and mixed race and different countries, right, kind of figuring it out together. And what I realized was there's no one way to be Korean. And then I came back, and I went to a Harley family kind of reunion slash powwow and got to see all of these people that I was also related to who Yeah. You know, physically didn't necessarily look alike, but, had all of these shared stories and shared traditions. And so it was an moment for me where I was like, you know what?
Chris Harley:I am who I am. This is my history. This is what I know about it. I did research on the Piscataway people so I could have some understanding of what it meant. Yeah.
Chris Harley:And then I was like, look, there are a lot of contradictions, right? Piscataway are East Coast Indians, right? Like East Coast indigenous people who have had colonization for four hundred and, you know, five hundred years, right, that
Ron Rapatalo:Yeah.
Chris Harley:We don't have a lot of our traditions and language and and and religion and and whatnot because that was all taken away from us, right? Like, that's that's what cultural genocide is. And so what we have is our family and our traditions and the way in which we take care of each other. And so that's what I take in as my culture and my heritage of being Indigenous. And so I say that because I think it's really important.
Chris Harley:As an ED, as a woman of color, I still was questioned significantly for my commitment to justice. And I had to be sure for myself of where I stood and why I stood there while also navigating the legitimate anger and frustration of other folks in the space who wish the world to be further along in this journey towards justice than we are. And that's also valid, right? And so being able to be grounded in my own identity meant that when folks were reacting or responding to these initiatives from frustration or from disappointment, I could hold that as well as to say, yeah, and here's where we're going, right? Like, there's still these ways forward.
Chris Harley:And so I think that those are the two things that for me, I think helped me navigate these conversations as well as I could. And then the last thing I'll say is that what is most important is that you keep doing the work. There is going to be a lot hemming and hawing. Should we do it this way? I'm not sure.
Chris Harley:Is it the time? And I think what is going to build trust, what is going to help your staff and team know that you are committed is that you're like, we might mess it up. We might fuck it up, and this isn't the right way. We're going to have to change it. But let's do this, and then we'll do this, and we're going to follow-up, and then we'll do this.
Chris Harley:And you keep moving it forward. And that's when folks say, oh, Okay, it's not just performative. It's not just bullshit. You're receiving this feedback. You're responding to it.
Chris Harley:You're taking action. We might have to switch we might have to change that action, but you're taking action, and I can see that you were committed. And so that, I think, and particularly in this moment in time, right, when all of this stuff is under attack, I know that some groups are trying to think about, like, should we call it DEI? Do we call it something else? Like, I don't really care what you call it, right, because what is most important is that people feel that they are welcome, that if changes need to be made, that the organization will make those changes, and that they're ready they're willing to receive that feedback and take action to respond to it as best in whatever way they're able to.
Ron Rapatalo:Quick pause in the action here. I know a lot of us leaders, entrepreneurs, folks just trying to do good work, have felt that grind of pushing a boulder uphill by ourselves. The learning is you don't actually have to do it all alone. Genius discovery program at thought leader path like having a think tank in your corner. It's not some cookie cutter formula but your story, your plan of impact, giving you the clarity and assets to take the next big step.
Ron Rapatalo:I've seen people go through this and walk out with their voices amplified, ideas sharpened. Some even launching podcasts like this one, Ronderings. So if you're tired of grinding in the dark and you're ready to step into your impact with right support, check out geniusdiscovery.org. I think sometimes folks, we can get wound up on the language, and I'm not saying language doesn't matter, does, right? It does matter.
Ron Rapatalo:And I think for me, the pragmatic part of me says, well, the work has to continue because we've gone in the ways of history. We go through so much where, like, how we do the work has to shift, but there's still folks who need us to do the work the way that we do. How much are you gonna be beholden to terminology versus like, well, this is the real part of the work and how much are you willing to let go of? Right? And that's hard.
Ron Rapatalo:Right? I mean, that's a very, people have very individual decisions, though, that's clearly, right? As I've experienced over these last, like, couple years, right? So this is a good transition, right? Not the Rodman question, but I'd be remiss since we, in our green room, you now live in Canada.
Ron Rapatalo:Mentioned that at the beginning. Talk to us about, I mean, I know why you did it because you gave that, but like for the art, like why did you make that transition and how is it going for you? Yeah.
Chris Harley:So I definitely had been thinking about this for a while. I was very disturbed by the first Trump administration. And I have one very good close friend who lives up in Canada. And as we were talking about it, I was like, if he gets back into office a second term, I know what's going to happen, but I don't want to be here for it.
Ron Rapatalo:And, yeah.
Chris Harley:I mean, there's just so many parallels to 1940s Germany. It's just alarming. And so after the election, I was like, all right, team Operation Freedom is a go. And so I started the process informing my board that I would be stepping down. I'm trying to think about how to hold the organization as I was transitioning out and being thoughtful about that and then also trying to figure out like how to find a path to stay in Canada.
Chris Harley:And so I've been back and forth since April of kind of coming, meeting folks, engaging with folks, trying to do some networking, meeting with immigration lawyers, trying to figure out what would be an appropriate pathway. And ultimately, I was able thankfully, because we still have valid treaties between The US and Canada, so it's a bit easier for us.
Chris Harley:I was able to get a work permit through this consulting role with the Korean Canadian Scholarship Foundation. So it's temporary. You know, but we are here now. And I will say I've been so grateful to the Canadian people. They've been very, very welcoming.
Chris Harley:They have really just opened up their arms and embraced me and my family. And, you know, it's I'm really I will say my children are nine. And some of the things that I'm most grateful for is that they can go to school and I don't have to feel worried that some angry person is going to walk in with a, you know, automatic weapon and take it out on some kids. You know, there's still a lot of similarities between The US and Canada. And so, you know, being a part of some of those conversations has been really interesting.
Chris Harley:But it's been great. It's been great. And I just, I feel very fortunate and grateful to be here.
Ron Rapatalo:What advice would you have for Americans who are thinking about making that move to whether it's Canada or somewhere else, considering
Ron Rapatalo:context you gave around, like, why you made the move? Because I think that in my it's not echo chain. It's not the right in my circle of friends, it is talked about
Chris Harley:for me. Well, I mean, the thing about it and so when I told it's interesting. When I told my board that I was planning to move, my board chair, who was a trans man, was like, I think maybe we should do that, too. And so him and his husband ended up moving to Amsterdam. And, you know, and so, right, like, do your research.
Chris Harley:There are a number of countries where it is fairly accessible to move and be able to stay. And so Amsterdam's one. I think Germany's another. Like, there are these countries that are offering that. Two, I think if that is something that you think you wanna do, I think you should just start taking the steps to do it.
Chris Harley:And this is one of the things that I've been thinking about is my level of willingness to sit in uncertainty. It's a very uncertain process. I spent many months not knowing what was going to happen and if this was all going to work out. But I was like, you know what? I also was trusting my gut, right?
Chris Harley:I don't want to be here if I don't think that this is the right place for my family, for my boys to be. Right? They're brown. Right? Like, I have boys of color.
Chris Harley:I was like, I don't want them to grow up in this space, and I don't know what's going to happen, but this is not what I want for them. And so that was really my driving force. I was like, look, it is a Hail Mary, right? And it was like, okay, I'm going to meet with this immigration lawyer. They're not giving me the right information.
Chris Harley:I'm going to meet with this immigration lawyer. Oh, okay. I can work with you. Let's figure that out. Okay.
Chris Harley:I'm going to find a place. I'm going to find a school. Like, I'm going to do the things that mean I'm coming, and I'm going to figure it out. And so, you know, here I am. And so, you know, folks are like, oh, you're so lucky.
Chris Harley:I'm a single mom, right? Like, I am the only person who's responsible for making sure that my kids have a house over their head and food in their bellies. And so it was a big chance. I I left a very stable role, comfortable work, to come here and so you can make your own luck.
Ron Rapatalo:Yeah. Well, it sounds like you gave no less than 10 ronderings during our episode, but now we are at the stage of this conversation where Okay. I am gonna ask you a rendering question. What lesson or value do you want to share with the audience? And you can pick two, maybe even three.
Ron Rapatalo:It's up to you.
Chris Harley:Yeah, so the main one, like I just said, is getting comfortable with uncertainty, getting comfortable with the unknown. Because I do think that that's a through line through all of my roles and experiences. Like, I'm going to do this thing, and it's a little bit crazy, and I'm not really sure what's going to happen, but this is where I am being sort of compelled. And when I think about it from a personal standpoint, I thought about how important it is to really know what's important to you and why and to make sure that you are balancing your gut with your brain and your heart to find the pathway forward, knowing that there are going to be naysayers. Folks are like, Why are you doing that?
Chris Harley:That doesn't make any sense. You should go get this job that is way more stable versus explore this other thing. And then I also was thinking there's actually a song in Frozen two that Anna sings after Elsa she didn't die, she kind of dies. She gets frozen or something.
Ron Rapatalo:Yes, yes. Okay.
Chris Harley:It's called Do the Next Right Thing. Right? And in the song, she talks about taking the next step and how it's really hard and you have to push yourself, but you take the next step. And that's a
Ron Rapatalo:bit of the way that
Chris Harley:I live my life, right? Like, I don't know. We're going to figure it out. I'm going to take the next stab and see where it leads. And I and I and so personally, that is sort of how I navigate things.
Chris Harley:But again, I had to navigate this transition also as a leader of an organization where I knew my staff were dependent on me, right, in this moment where the uncertainty was very high, right? Knew Trump was coming in, what's going to happen, right? And I had to tell them I'm going to be leaving in this moment, right, but not do it in a way where they would lose faith in their role or in the organization. And so for me, I'm always trying to think about best case, worst case scenarios, like how to, what are the types of uncertainty that you're navigating and knowing what I can control and what I can't control and getting really clear on that so that the things that I can control, I could hold as carefully as possible. And then the things that I can't control, being aware of them so that you can anticipate when they go wrong.
Chris Harley:It was really around communication.
Ron Rapatalo:Yeah.
Chris Harley:Right? Like making sure that my staff understood what was happening, that my leadership understood what was happening, and being open to the questions that they had, right, and being able to be as transparent as possible about the choices that we were making and why, and then also acknowledging where I didn't have answers, right? There were certain things where I'm like, I don't know what's going to happen, but here are the options, and this is what we do know about this. But I can't tell you yes or no it's going to be this way. Staying focused on what is sort of mission critical, right?
Chris Harley:Like what's the organization's mandate, its mission, vision, values, like what are the most important priorities, and then making choices around that so that staff were given the space to navigate uncertainty in the ways that made sense for them as well. So putting some things down because it was like, listen, we don't know what's going to happen here. And I want you to have the mental space, the capacity to be flexible if we need to because things are changing. And then really trying to normalize people feeling uncomfortable in that transition, but giving them the space to express that and explore that and process that together. Because I think we need to be able to know that the step might be wobbly, but somebody is there to help.
Chris Harley:And I think that that created a lot of trust with my staff where they knew that they could say like, I don't know what's happening. I don't think I can do this. And I was like, okay, so like, here's what's important and let's put this thing down because we don't know. And then I think overall, as a leader in this moment when things are uncertain, is trying to maintain your own emotional regulation, right, so that you can be sort of calm and not reactive in the face of things being uncertain. You know, I mean, was, like I said, there was many months where I was like, I don't know what I'm doing.
Chris Harley:Like, I'm just a Hail Mary out here. And after I moved, people were like, I didn't realize you were that stressed out about this. And I was like, Oh yeah, I was not sleeping many But good that that wasn't coming out so that the stability of the organization and the stability of my family, right, was maintained through all of this. Then we were able to kind of come out on the other side with greater clarity. So that's the stuff that I'm thinking about in terms of leadership during a period of uncertainty and transition.
Ron Rapatalo:Sounds like you have a book in you to write about that, Chris.
Chris Harley:I mean, I don't know. I have a lot of musings, but I'm not so great always at, like, writing it down in a cohesive way.
Ron Rapatalo:Barleyisms. We need to Yeah. I mean, there's something around the clarity of your voice even if in the moment you felt very unclear. Right? You are a steady, steady force and leader in what you do.
Ron Rapatalo:And so I'm just feeling very grateful that you came on today. So before we end, what do you want to promote? How do people find you?
Chris Harley:Oh gosh, I forgot to prep for that.
Ron Rapatalo:So
Chris Harley:I am working as a consultant. So if there are folks that are looking for fractional leaders or folks to navigate, you know, these kinds of moments of transition within your organization and, you know, thinking about strategic planning, like, I would love to talk with you because, you know, I do think that particularly, you know, leaders and their staff need a lot of support. And I am a bit worried about particularly, you know, leaders of color getting burnt out in this moment. So I really want to be able to be someone to support them and help navigate this period of time.
Ron Rapatalo:Well, Chris, thank you for your wisdom, your vulnerability, and your story on Ronderings. In the words of one of my many, many heroes, particularly one of my sports heroes, I always end off Rondering with saying, in the words of Dionne Sanders, we always come hot with amazing guests like Chris Harley. Thank you for your time.
Chris Harley:Thank you.
Ron Rapatalo:Wow, Chris Harley. I told y'all this episode will stay with you, and it will. And I keep coming back to as a reminder that leadership is a balance of gut Yeah. Brain, and heart, that some of the biggest leaps aren't strategic plans, they're survival decisions. For do the next right thing mantra, shout outs have frozen too, is something so many leaders need in this moment of uncertainty, burnout, volatility.
Ron Rapatalo:Chris's journey from Maryland to Oberlin activism, from the Obama White House to leading a national organization, now rebuilding life and work in Canada, it's a blueprint for anyone navigating transition, risk, and identity all at once. If you want support with organizational change, equity center leadership, or fractional guidance through messy middle moments, Chris is absolutely someone you need to know. As always, thank you for tuning into Ronderings, where we hold space for story, reflection, and connection. If this episode moved you, share it with someone who needs feel for their own next right thing. Till next time, stay curious, stay connected, and keep Ronder ing.
Ron Rapatalo:Peace. Before we wrap, I've gotta give a huge shout out to the crew that helps make Ronderings come alive every week, podcasts that matter. Their mission, simple but powerful. Every great idea deserves a voice. So if you've been sitting on that spark of a show or story, don't overthink it.
Ron Rapatalo:Just start. Head to podcastmatter.com, and let their team bring your vision to life. Till next time. Keep pondering. Keep growing.
Ron Rapatalo:Keep sharing your voice with the world. Peace.
Ron Rapatalo:Thank you for listening to today's Rondering. I enjoyed hanging out with me and my guests, and I hope you leave with something worth chewing on. If it made you smile, think, or even roll your eyes in a good way, pass it along to someone else. I'm Ron Rapatalo, and until next time, keep promdering, keep laughing, and keep becoming.
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