Episode 84
· 01:01:02
What's up? I'm Ron Rapatalo, and this is the Ronderings podcast. Around here, I sit down with guests for real, unpolished conversations about the lessons and values that shaped them. And I'll be right there with you, sharing my own take, laughing at myself when I need to, and wondering out loud about this messy thing called life. Glad you pulled up a chair.
Ron Rapatalo:Let's get into it. Welcome back to another episode of Ronderings, the space where we slow down, get honest, and make room for the conversations we really need. Today, listen, I had the absolute joy of sitting with someone whose leadership, spirit, and lived wisdom just hits different, Dr. Natalie Neris. Before we even hit record, we were already debating New York for Chicago like the territorial city kids we are, with my daughters in the background playing Just Dance because that's real life. That's exactly who Natalie is, grounded, brilliant, rooted in her city, and filled with humanity while she leads.
Ron Rapatalo:This conversation goes deep. We talk about navigating selective enrollment schools or carrying the weight of poverty induced trauma. We talk about faith in times that feel like civilization is unraveling. Why she believes new leaders are emerging exactly because of that. We get to leadership burnout, system misalignment, Chicago public schools, the ancestral wisdom black and brown communities hold about surviving and reshaping oppressive systems.
Ron Rapatalo:Natalie's got this rare ability to blend theory, practice, and proximity, and a whole lot of integrity. And she reminds us that even when she loses, she wins because she leads with a whole heart. Tap in. This one is rich. Hey, friends.
Ron Rapatalo:Before we get started, I wanna share something that's been a big part of my own journey. Two years ago, I published my book Leverage. That experience cracked something open for me. I saw how publishing isn't just about pages, about owning your story, sharpening your voice, and amplifying your impact. The part that meant the most, readers reached out to me to say they felt seen.
Ron Rapatalo:That's when I knew this work mattered. I loved it so much I cofounded Leverage Publishing Group with friends who would know this world inside and out. Now we help leaders, entrepreneurs, and change makers turn their ideas into books and podcasts that actually move people. You've got a story in you, and I know you do. Let's chat.
Ron Rapatalo:Find me on LinkedIn or at leveragepublishinggroup.com because the world doesn't just need more books. It needs your book. Alright. Let's get to today's episode. Peace.
Ron Rapatalo:Ronderings Universe. I have Dr. Natalie Neris on the mic with me. Shout out to my homie from DC, Lea Crusey, for introducing us. And, Natalie, we've got a ton of people in common in Chicagoland. I just wanted to welcome you to the Ronderings family.
Ron Rapatalo:How are you doing today?
Natalie Neris:Thank you. Thank you. Thanks for having me. Yes. We do have a ton of people.
Ron Rapatalo:Yes. We will not go through all our common Chicago connections because there are a ton. And that would be the whole episode. This is not a game of like, who do Natalie and Ron know? What kind of tea could we spill about them?
Ron Rapatalo:That's a different episode. I don't I'm not trying to do, you know, the the shady stuff. I'm talking about people. That's a different that's not that's not this podcast. So why don't we get right into it, Natalie?
Ron Rapatalo:You ready?
Natalie Neris:Let's go. Alright.
Ron Rapatalo:What's your story?
Natalie Neris:What's my story?
Ron Rapatalo:What's your story?
Natalie Neris:This question I'm really thinking about, like, what is the angle that what is the I always introduce myself by saying that I'm a Chicago girl through and through. I'm a third generation product of Chicago Public Schools, the parent of two graduates, two college students from Chicago Public I think a big part of my story is education. Like, from the time I was born and really thinking about my parents' trajectory in Chicago. Yeah. I think my story is about overcoming.
Natalie Neris:I think we're all products of reform in Chicago. Yeah.
Ron Rapatalo:Describe your parents to me.
Natalie Neris:My parents. Well, I'll tell you this. The day I was born, my father called my grandmother to find out how to spell my name, and he had my name tattooed on his left arm in old English. Okay. Very proud Puerto Rican man whose family came to Chicago really at the tail end of the Great Migration for work.
Natalie Neris:My mother was born here, as was her mother, but of Mexican descent.
Ron Rapatalo:Okay.
Natalie Neris:So my parents, both of them went to Orr High School, which is on Chicago's West Side. Interestingly, that was my neighborhood high school. But as luck would have it, a selective enrollment process in Chicago made it so that I could go to a high school outside of the confines of my community. And I think that that for me was the beginning of a trajectory changer in my in my education.
Ron Rapatalo:Yeah. This is sounds like an interview question. When I hear something like that, I'm just gonna go right into it. How did going that selective high school change your trajectory? What was your experience there?
Ron Rapatalo:What what did you think your trajectory was before that, and where did it start to shift?
Natalie Neris:Yeah. I I felt like I was thrown into the ocean with people from communities I'd never met before. I'd gone from a community that where people knew me. My family had historically been a community. I could walk down the street and people would know me and in many ways protect me.
Natalie Neris:And then I suddenly was in a high school with people who only knew me by a last name and a numb and a number and an ID number. So I went to a high school with about 4,000 students. So one of the largest high schools still in Chicago. And in many ways, I I would say I did a reverse slip through the cracks. Game the the shift wasn't the school itself.
Natalie Neris:It was the fact that I had resources outside of the school that helped me leverage what the school gave me. So when I was probably about a junior in high school, I would say definitely headed in the wrong direction. My aunt invited me to go to her church for a, an open mic. It was an open mic. And I went and became part of the youth group.
Natalie Neris:But the long the the long and short of it is in that time between my junior year and a senior, I met a woman by the name of Lynnae St. Marie, who made me apply to go to college. And so she sat with me as I filled out my application. I ended up going into Northeastern University, which is a local college in Chicago, and getting in through the back door through the student support services door. So it was really Lynnae St. Marie who took whatever piece of me could get through high school and really took what I had and taught me how to be a student. So what the church brought me was belonging, resources Yes. And then an opportunity to see a path forward. And so, Lynne, when I think about what my story is, we're not for her. The story I always tell is my very first day of freshman year in college, Lynnae gave me very clear directions.
Natalie Neris:I want you to go to school. You're gonna go to class, they're gonna give you a stack of papers, and they're gonna be stapled together. That's called a syllabus. You're gonna get one in every class. I want you to come, and I want you to come to my dining room table after class.
Natalie Neris:And I did. And when I got there, she had an assignment notebook with different color pens and literally sat there and taught me red is gonna be for English. Green is gonna be for science. Blue is gonna be for math. And then she taught me, I want you to go to class, and I want you to see who's raising their hand.
Natalie Neris:And the next class, I want you to sit next to them. And the next class, I want you to ask them if they want to study with you. And the next class, I want you to invite them over, and I'm going to cook dinner, and I'll have a spread for you all, and you come and study on my dining room table. And so, you know, a beautiful part of my story is Lynnae. And it was through that relationship that I was introduced to I was one of those students whose parents made too much money to be able to afford to, or or to be able to get any financial aid, but also didn't make enough money to be able to pay for for school.
Natalie Neris:So so whether or not I was gonna be able to continue going to school was always gonna be in question. But Lynnae introduced me to a businessman from the East Coast, who till this day I have never met, but who became and my paid for my entire undergraduate degree. I mean, at that time we were faxing, right? So it would fax him.
Ron Rapatalo:Wow. He would
Natalie Neris:pay and then he would send me a check so I could cover my books. And when I was a senior in high school, I mean, I was a senior in college, he sent me a large check and he said here so you don't have to work this semester so you can finish student teaching.
Ron Rapatalo:How did Lynne know him? Do you know that story?
Natalie Neris:I mean, through just different relationships. Lynne was also an educator, but had definitely more of a worldly experience. And so so that so that part of my early story. Right? If you can imagine.
Natalie Neris:So I grew up I grew up in Humboldt Park in Chicago, very much in the hood, very much a reverse look through the cracks. You know, I always say, like, never should have made it. Right? Like, there's so many people who grew up on my block, who I played with, and, you know, we played baseball on the empty lot and tag in front and rode bike, and we're in the park together Right. Who who didn't finish high school.
Natalie Neris:Right?
Ron Rapatalo:Mhmm. Yeah.
Natalie Neris:Who are doing the best they can but didn't get to leverage the opportunity that education presents. And so Lanay really interceded and and and helped to put me on the path that I that I am now on today. But it was her her initial investment in me. Yeah. Yeah.
Ron Rapatalo:No. It's interesting. Right? I think something we don't talk about enough when particularly and I say this as as an Asian American, Philippine American. Right?
Ron Rapatalo:But my watch of black and brown student experiences at selective public high schools in the country is this one of, like, folks who can more easily slip through the cracks. Because in my experience, what I found is those high schools, if you struggle, there's no you either sink or swim. It is a it's a it's rough. Right? And I don't know if that was, like, your exact but, like, my watch and thinking through my my Stuyvesant experience, right, is like, yes, there were black and brown students who succeeded.
Ron Rapatalo:Many. And yet there were just as many that did not. Mhmm. And yet there's so few that are there historically. And certainly today, like, for Stuyvesant for the last number of years.
Ron Rapatalo:Right. It gets talked about New York Times every year. Nine Stuyvesant students who are black accepted this year, seven and the numbers been less than 10 for God knows how long. It's embarrassing. Right.
Ron Rapatalo:And that experience of, you know, sink or swim, and when you are a black or brown student, disproportionately of not being able to get the resources you need is something that I just watched as a kid. And that's just not science, that's generally speaking. So.
Natalie Neris:Absolutely. And I think even I would go I would go as far as saying, let's even get a little more granular about talking about what struggle was because struggle for me wasn't I mean, I graduated a 1.9 GPA, understand, I earned every bit of that 1.9 GPA. It's like absolutely nothing. Yeah. I did absolutely nothing, but be just naturally smart.
Natalie Neris:Right?
Ron Rapatalo:Yeah.
Natalie Neris:I did it from my mama. Right? Like, so just just just naturally able to be a problem solver. Right? Whatever got me to that high school to begin with.
Natalie Neris:But I you know, when I was going through my initial round of writing my dissertation and really thinking about what was the research that I wanted to dig into, I ended up choosing another path. But it was at the beginning of we were hearing a lot of talks about social emotional learning. And so I dug into the research on that. And I and to be honest, it was in that process that I was able to really see myself and my experience very differently.
Ron Rapatalo:Yeah.
Natalie Neris:I graduated from high school with a 1.9 and went to college, but understand that, like, there was a chip on my shoulder this entire time Right. Because I believed that I wasn't smart enough. Mhmm. And so I spent so much of my college, but also my career. Achievement was incredibly important.
Natalie Neris:It's what made me feel valuable. Needed to prove that I wasn't that student that existed in high school while everyone else was going off to prestigious colleges, and I didn't even know what the college application process was. When I started to do this research, it really dug into poverty, and the connection between poverty and chronic traumatic stress, and then started to dig more into the brain science, recognizing that when students experience chronic traumatic stress, which I did, I grew up in a in a home that held both love and dysfunction people leave every day. And it was a student who lived very much in fear, constantly. So you can think about being afraid and just being afraid all of the time, your nervous system is afraid.
Natalie Neris:And so what I learned in this research is that students who grow up with chronic traumatic stress, often associated with poverty, and all of the things that come with that, add being black and brown and all of that stuff, they're defensive, impulsive, reactive. It helped me to see. I mean, I was a I was and I'm not proud to say this, you know, I was a fighter in high school. Like lit high. Like, I wish somebody would say something to me.
Natalie Neris:Like, I was ready for those things. And I was raised that way. Don't let anybody say anything to you at first. Like that was, I was taught to protect myself. But it wasn't until I really got into the, into the research to understand that I'm not mean.
Natalie Neris:Like, I'm not a mean. Like, that's actually a consequence. And how many other students experience. Part of my story, I think is, is learning who I am, but also unlearning and having to grow, doing the work of being a person. I was just telling my daughters today, you know, when you're changing familiar patterns and breaking racial curses and generational, ways of being, and also in your career and also serving other people, that's hard work.
Natalie Neris:But that's all part of my story has has been that braided throughout at different scales.
Ron Rapatalo:Yeah. What does that healing and unlearning look like? Because I imagine this has been going on for some time, and I would argue that you're always, I think, some level, the way many of us grew up. Right? There's always healing and unlearning to be done because we change.
Ron Rapatalo:And when you get into different circumstances, the things that got you there, this chip on the shoulder, I think, which so many of us have grown up around the way, once you get to something more stable, like that doesn't work when you're at that level to go to whatever that next thing is, the chip on the shoulder is it's exhausting.
Natalie Neris:Yeah. Yeah. The work is to see yourself. Right? Yeah.
Natalie Neris:The work is to see yourself and to really get clear on who gets to say who you are. And for me, my faith is incredibly strong. So I'm I have a clear understanding that who God says that I am. Yeah. And also why I have a an understanding, I think, of why I'm here on earth for such a time as this.
Natalie Neris:And and so much of the struggles and the having to grow and having to lean into my faith and having to make mistakes and come into awareness. And there's a lot of the ugly part of, I think, healing that people don't talk about that happens in private. I think folks often see those of us who are leading and we appear so confident and we're making things happen. But the behind the scenes work to become that person is, for me, I mean, it's, it's taken a lot of different forms, sometimes isolation, sometimes deep sadness and tears and depression, and sometimes the gin and sometimes all of those at the same time, but it's Yeah. Belief that there's another side.
Ron Rapatalo:Yeah. So what I'd like to call, I think, especially this day of curation on social media, right? I've been reflecting on this about myself. Right? There's the kind of the public curated run.
Ron Rapatalo:And when I tell people that there's many a time I'm not happy, they go, wait. You're not. There are times you're not happy, but you seem so there's a lot of feeling like. I'm like and I think especially as I've gotten older and I've started to figure more things out about me and there are things I have thought I had fully healed, especially around the passing of my father, I think I've come up in other ways that have gotten older. I just I'm I'm going through and I just turned 50.
Ron Rapatalo:So I think there's it's like age and things and life and work where I'm just like, oh, oh, oh. Yeah. And I've also tried to be a little bit more public about that without spilling all the tea because that's not my tea to spill to get that you mentioned the behind the scenes stuff. Like, I think what people don't realize is how deeply emotional and, like I don't know if the word embarrassing is. That's not the right word.
Ron Rapatalo:That's a judgment on my part of how I felt at times. Right? But the when you carry, like, shame and all these things, like, it's, whoo, it is a thing. And, like, to talk about it, it's something that people they see it. Like, anecdotally, I know when I put those things out and just give glimpses of it, they tend to get, like, people like, woah.
Ron Rapatalo:He said that. And they just I get the sense that people, like, they probably read it. They can't even, like, comment on it or like it.
Natalie Neris:Yeah. It's like
Ron Rapatalo:it's like that. You know?
Natalie Neris:Yeah. It's vulnerable. Mhmm. It's vulnerable. And I I I resonate with what you're saying in terms of embarrassing.
Natalie Neris:And part of that is you you know, for for me also just culturally
Ron Rapatalo:Yeah.
Natalie Neris:Now make sure that you're always on point. Make sure you know, stay ready so you don't have to get ready. Don't show that you have weakness. So what I think though is it's so important for leaders who are coming. I think it's so important for us who I I've been in this work for almost twenty five years.
Natalie Neris:And so it's so important, I think, for those who are coming up alongside us and behind us to really see the truth of what it is to lead. I think to see the truth of what it is to lead. I feel so passionately about the intersection of faith and leadership because what I know to be true is that any leader that I know that has done tremendous things, that has moved work forward, there has been a faith, a faith practice in their life, whatever that faith practice is, that has given them the courage. And particularly when we're talking about education and reform, you know, no one knows how to do it. Right?
Natalie Neris:Like, we're all figuring it out. We're all figuring it out, and it takes tremendous courage. And sometimes a belief that has to come from somewhere else that your vision is actually attainable.
Ron Rapatalo:Yeah. Alright. Let me keep it real. A lot of us have write a book sitting on our goals list, maybe for years. I sure did.
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Ron Rapatalo:This now even makes more sense from the conversation you and I had before we got on the mic today. When I asked Leah and other past guests of Ronderings to queue up referrals for guests, this is exactly what I said. Multi hyphenated leader and someone who practices sacrosyncism, which is my my loose term for it, like, definition is the alignment of the personal, the professional, and the spiritual. And the fact that you talked about how much faith has played a big part in your leadership and the truth of what it is to lead, I want you to go there with me, Natalie. Talk to us a little bit about, from your perspective, truth in leading, especially in ed reform, and how faith has played a role in your courage to lead.
Ron Rapatalo:When let's be clear. When I watch a lot of folks look like us and lead, we probably all have stories of folks who look like us especially. And when you get there without the right things around you, the system crushes you and that you act just like all the other motherfuckers who do some crazy ass shit when they're the roles. Right? Because it it it the system will will shape you to be what it wants you to be, which
Natalie Neris:is not to buck against the system. Right? I would say maybe I would push a little with all of the things. If you're not solid with what is inside of you and who is inside of you and what you represent, then you will absolutely get to places and compromise. When you are not clear on who you are, on whose you are, and why you're doing this work, you will get into play.
Natalie Neris:And we see that and we see people compromise in so many different ways and succumb to pressure. And then we see people that don't, people that get fired, who we don't hear from, who have great positions and then suddenly they're gone. Right? Like, so
Ron Rapatalo:We hear that a lot too.
Natalie Neris:Yes. See that we see that all the time. I appreciated this when when Aliyah brought and she sort of gave me the snippet. I was excited because this is something that I actually really want to talk more about. So my my soap I have several soap boxes.
Natalie Neris:One of which is I I really believe that we are collapsing as a civilization. We are mid collapse. And when we look at the architecture of collapses of civilizations over the history of time, they take on the same architecture. So we are collapsing as a civilization. That is the truth.
Natalie Neris:And if it is the truth, what we also know from previous examples is that in the collapse, new leadership emerges. What we know is that in the collapse, new leadership emerges. It does. And I, Natalie, believe so strongly that God is doing something in the earth. I think there is a place of morality that we need to come to as, as an earth.
Natalie Neris:And I think that there is an opportunity that sits in this moment for those of us who are leading with a heart of integrity, those of us who are leading, you know, in a way that is about justice and fairness and in education, particularly in a way that actually does center students. We are the ones that we've been waiting for. We are the architects of of what is of what is to take shape. And, you know, small is all, we stand on the shoulders of folks who've done But I think recognizing the pivotal moment that we're in right now and the importance of the integrated leader, of the whole leader that is going to also model a way of leading that is sustainable. You know, when we look at organizations and we see constant turnover, we're creating we've created conditions that are just not sustainable.
Natalie Neris:Right. And then leaders leave in three years. But what we know is the longer that you are in a place, the more that you understand it, the more that you can vision, the more that you can build a team, the greater chances are that you're going to get to what goal it is that you're setting for yourself. But we're building infrastructure or existing in previous infrastructure that just isn't aligned with our values and people are are burning out.
Ron Rapatalo:Yeah. I wanna get there because in many of the recent Ronderings episode and certainly outside of a recorded episode, It's a very constant conversation I have is around burnt out leaders. Right? Whether they are in a job, consulting, or not in a job. I think people in our larger social impact space have varying degrees of burnt out.
Ron Rapatalo:Right? And I imagine fast forward to today, what you currently do, I suspect you help leaders through those things. Right? And so I'm curious, Natalie, what are you seeing around the conditions of burnout today, and how are you supporting them knowing what you know around how integral faith is in leadership and the truth that you've been able to find in your own leadership over time?
Natalie Neris:Oh, that was a multilayered question.
Ron Rapatalo:I know. This is I ask questions as if they're like triple decker sandwiches. I can't help you.
Natalie Neris:Right. Right. So I'll I'll answer I'll answer my interpretation of
Ron Rapatalo:the Please do. Please do.
Natalie Neris:I think that what I'm seeing in general are very ambitious visions for the future for companies, people who want to innovate and do amazing things in organizations. The challenge that I'm seeing is that often aspirational values and lived values aren't in alignment. And so when we're just talking about, and I'm just talking about an organization that has an ambitious vision, but doesn't have the infrastructure internal to the organization to execute on that vision that is a new to their values. So the the outward vision, let's just say, is about equity. It's about fairness.
Natalie Neris:It's about ensuring that people get what they need, right? Yet inwardly, the values in which we sort of use to build out how we get the work done aren't aligned with those values. You can imagine, can imagine you're trying to fit a new ambitious vision into a structure that wasn't designed for it. That's culture, mean, the whole work of change management, I think in general, we would go a lot further to really get into the understanding of systems, to build a shared understanding of systems, and to really think about how we're not just what we're doing, but how we're doing. I think what we do matters, but how we do it matters even more for its sustainability, both for the leader who is at the top, but also the leaders that are throughout the entire organization actually making it happen.
Natalie Neris:I think when you don't understand how the work that you're doing every single day is getting to the vision, it's frustrating. When that work isn't articulated to you, now you're mad. Now you're talking to the person next to you. Now you're complaining to the client that maybe you shouldn't be complaining to. You're talking to this.
Natalie Neris:And so now we start to see culture eroding. But part of that erosion is because aspirational values and vision are in mind, and people aren't talking about that explicitly. Yeah. They're trying to still fit a a square peg into a round home.
Ron Rapatalo:Yeah. Let me try to ground this in something I imagine you have a lot of not only lived experience, but tons of professional experience on, which is the Chicago Public Education System, Natalie. I know. I'm going there. So I'm curious if you were to use that kind of systemic analysis on what you see in the Chicago Public Education System.
Ron Rapatalo:And, like and I'm watching this, yes. Former chancellor of New York City, you know, Dr. Meisha Ross Porte's one of the finalists. I don't know who the other finalists. I didn't Google the rest of the finalists, but I'm like, there's a big decision to be made for your hometown school system. Right?
Ron Rapatalo:But I know that your previous work was very much centered on what's happening in, you know, Chicago Public Education. And so talk to us a little bit about, like, how you're analyzing that said system with what you just said and sort of any, like, words of wisdom. Like, if we were to do this better, this is what we need to start think be be thinking about. I know it's a big I know. I asked another multilayered question.
Ron Rapatalo:I'm like in multilayered question land today.
Natalie Neris:No. I wanna answer it. I think that there needs to be a shared understanding understanding of of the the system system that that we we are are working working in. In.
Ron Rapatalo:Okay.
Natalie Neris:Right now, we have a 21 member school board. Oh, that's big.
Ron Rapatalo:Okay. All elected. Correct?
Natalie Neris:At this point, half of them are elected.
Ron Rapatalo:Half of them. Okay.
Natalie Neris:Half of them are appointed by 2027. It'll be a fully elected school board. Interesting. Okay. So you have that, and we talk about just like policymaking.
Natalie Neris:If you can imagine having to teach 21 people how the Chicago Public Education System works, the system for which they are making incredibly big decisions. We have leadership that is turning over. Yes. Which we know in a school, research has shown when a principal leaves, it takes four years for a school to get to where it was, right? Like I've you've heard that data piece.
Natalie Neris:So what does that mean for the district? I mean, I think that there's an opportunity here, but the only way to try to make change flow through the entire system is going to be incredibly challenging unless you are bringing in the very people who are impacted by the system to support its design. I feel strongly that in order for us to both understand complex systems, and to be able to create solutions within complex systems, we have to leverage theory. So the intellectually rigorous aspects of understanding systems, we have to leverage practice. So that is really the earned wisdom of from doing, right, and then proximity, the lived experience.
Natalie Neris:And so if I were coming in to lead the district, I would think about the system from those three lenses, from the lens of theory, practice and proximity. And I would think about who are the people or the groups that could come together to design what the solution needs to be for the district, both at scale and in smaller parts. Challenge is we don't have a shared understanding of the system. The challenge is, is that we're not bringing in necessarily always a diverse group of stakeholders, co create, co produce, and then implement changes. And so I see an opportunity here to build a shared understanding of the system.
Natalie Neris:But I'm also recognizing it's easy to see how complex is right now. And, and to say, I'm going to do with my school. Yeah. I think just like I said earlier, the aspirations for the district, I mean, the district is doing amazing. Just talking to group of leaders with Surge Institute yesterday, you know, I'm a Chicago girl and I'm hard on Chicago.
Natalie Neris:I'm hard on us because I'm and I know that there's so much possibility for students and yet tremendous work Chicago has done and the way that Chicago has led the way. Needs to do a better job at aligning what we say that we care about with the infrastructure to actually execute on it. Yeah. The district. And the question becomes, who gets to design that infrastructure?
Natalie Neris:Like literally, to design the reporting structure, who gets to design the offices that serve community. All of those internal structures make when we talk about emergent strategy, emergent strategy is really about creating the conditions for what you want to emerge. And so if we're saying that we want better outcomes for students, how are we aligning that vision? How are we creating the conditions for that to happen in a cohesive way? And right now, is a little bit in limbo.
Natalie Neris:And so it feels uncertain for really how to do that work, at least at scale in this truth. You
Ron Rapatalo:know, I get cynical. Right? Because, I mean, I've read Adrienne Maree Brown and Emergent Strategy. Right? And it makes so much sense to me from those of us that are most proximate to the work and the impact should be the ones designing, and yet I see that in smaller cases.
Ron Rapatalo:I don't I can't think of many times I've seen it at scale. Right? And so I guess my rathering wondering, that's not my lesser value. My my wondering, let me use the actual term, wondering is, how could that happen in Chicago? I mean, this is kind of like we're we're playing at the theoretical here, but, like, does that need to be a certain chancellor that's coming in?
Ron Rapatalo:Does it need to be, you know, the, like, upswell of, like, community stakeholders? And, you know, does it need to be the right, you know, politicking for the right school board members to play? Is it all of that? Because it just seems to be something where at the end of it all, I can't help but think this is my pop culture brain. One of my favorite shows that only got two damn seasons.
Ron Rapatalo:Two seasons. If you remember this show about Kelsey Grammer playing the mayor of Chicago called Boss. Do you remember that show?
Natalie Neris:No. I don't.
Ron Rapatalo:Oh my god. It was so good. Natalie, it was good. It only got two seasons. I believe it's on Starz.
Natalie Neris:Okay.
Ron Rapatalo:And it just once again, I I'd be one I'd be alive if I said, like, yeah, that's really Chicago because I don't know that. But just the intrigue and, like, the running of the city and all the back and forth, I was like, boy, this is a hard ass job and figuring everything out, and then he was dealing with his own, like, health issues and all these things. Right? But I think suffice to say, it just seems that there's so many things that are, like, intersecting here around, particularly my oversimplified version is the people in power who wanna keep power will do what they need to do to keep it right. So how do you how do you upset that balance to get the, in the words of Dr. King, and this was mentioned in mass at the Episcopalian church it was at today, how do we get the arc of just arc of justice?
Ron Rapatalo:Oh my god. Always get the, oh my god, I'm getting Dr. King's phrase wrong. But like, how do we get the arc of justice to bend in that direction of justice again? Because right now it doesn't feel that way.
Natalie Neris:So I think it's about finding leverage points.
Ron Rapatalo:I think
Natalie Neris:it doesn't feel that way because it is overwhelming and the system is complex. So if you can imagine us mapping out the system, where is where is an entry point?
Ron Rapatalo:Yeah.
Natalie Neris:What's an entry point? One approach I have taken in working with the district is very much connected to my faith. Because when you're praying and you're like, well, and Bible says this, and so promise me this, come through for me, you know? And I think it's when we think about how policy is like, policy is such an important space, not just in classrooms, really informing and shaping policy. And so right now, and I'll give you an actual sort of case study example.
Natalie Neris:So CPS was redesigning their accountability policy, the school quality rating policy, when Mayor Lori Lightfoot was put before she had her first board meeting with the new Board of Ed. They put the policy in front of them, and it nearly didn't pass. The feedback that was given immediately to the district was go back and redesign this with community input. As someone who believes that theory, practice, and proximity are important to solving complex problems, that to me was an entry point. At the time, I was working with Kids First Chicago, Chief of Community Engagement.
Natalie Neris:And so our team was asked to take on the project of stakeholder engagement for the accountability policy. Wow. Here's here is how here is here is the way. I mean, I'll go back to my biblical reference. The district produced an equity framework in 2018.
Natalie Neris:It took a very long dirt, Dr. Maurice Sweeney and Dr. Janice Jackson. And so I was able to say, if we are going to come in and support stakeholder engagement, here is what your equity policy says about the spectrum of engagement. We had all of these values in this equity framework.
Natalie Neris:And I came in and said, allow us to support our team came in, right, like allow us to support the district in creating it's Sunday, like this Sunday and I am making Sunday dinner and my mother is coming and she is, she is.
Ron Rapatalo:That's mommy. And
Natalie Neris:so we were able to work alongside the district to really build a model. How would you get that done? If we're saying that we want to create policy that actually does engage community, what we were able to bring together, again, in great partnership with the district, what is now known as the Stakeholder Engagement Design Team. This was a design team that was comprised of teachers, parents, students, the union, researchers, community based organization, the principals association really came together. One, anchored in principles of liberatory design, acknowledged, hey, accountability is complex.
Natalie Neris:The district had already acknowledged there were, you know, harm from previous policy as part sort of entering in. And this group got together and spent about a year and a half working alongside the district to create the engagement plan for the city. Wow. Ended up engaging about 20,000 stakeholders across the city on this policy. Wow.
Natalie Neris:I think importantly, students were part of it every step of the way. You know, one, I think, example that I feel most proud of is we worked with UIC to co design a citywide survey. The district put out a citywide survey in 2019, but the one that was co designed with these stakeholders that I mentioned received you know, the district, I think, had 4,000 respondents. The one that was designed by this team received 8,000, which I think is a testament. They decided who was going to take the survey, how we were gonna recruit communities, the way we were gonna differentiate parents, perhaps in one community, they just want the QR code.
Natalie Neris:Other parents want a flyer. So how are we really bringing in people who understand community that can help be part of that design? And that's just one example of how do you build again, I'll go back to infrastructure, which I feel so passionately about. How do you really build the infrastructure to to to execute on our aspirational values. And I just think we need more opportunities for practice doing that.
Natalie Neris:The accountability policy was passed unanimously by the board in April 2023. Certainly not perfect, so much more work to be done. But I think it serves as one model for how can you actually come in and leverage expertise in a truly distributed leadership way, to be able to ensure that the policy that we're enacting actually fits. I was a classroom teacher for ten years. I love being a classroom teacher.
Natalie Neris:Love Yeah. The students of the classroom. I was Golden Apple Award winning. I was nationally board certified. I understood teaching and learning and I saw the way the systems outside of the classroom were not serving what my students actually needed.
Natalie Neris:And I knew they serving what my students needed because they weren't serving what I needed system. Why? They didn't really serve what my own children needed to the degree while they were in the system. And so I just think we need to continue to create models for how to do it. Talk a lot about what we should do.
Natalie Neris:I wanna know how did you do it? Show me your agenda. Show me how you facilitated. Talk to me about how you got people on the same page. What was your communication plan?
Natalie Neris:How did you establish culture? And so a lot of the stuff I geek out on is really about trying to understand systems, you know, but also how do I translate some of the really good things in theoretical space to make it plain, really make what's complex accessible so folks are connecting what they're doing every day in an intellectually rigorous way as well.
Ron Rapatalo:Quick pause in the action here. I know a lot of us leaders, entrepreneurs, folks just trying to do good work and felt that grind of pushing a boulder uphill by ourselves. The learning is you don't actually have to do it all alone. Genius Discovery program at thought leader path like having a think tank in your corner. It's not some cookie cutter formula, but your story, your plan of impact, giving you the clarity and assets to take the next big step.
Ron Rapatalo:I've seen people go through this and walk out with their voices amplified and they sharpened. Some even launching podcasts like this one Rhonda is. So if you're tired of grinding in the dark and you're ready to step into your impact with right support, check out geniusdiscovery.org. Where did you find you learned this kind of leadership? Was this through your doctoral program, practice, a little bit of both?
Ron Rapatalo:Because here's here's my here's my kind of hot take in thinking about what we expect particularly of education leaders. Right? This kind of systemic analysis, I finally happens in certain spaces. Right? I I don't, you know, I don't perceive that, like, if it may maybe it happens a little bit.
Ron Rapatalo:Right? If you are getting your principal certification, maybe it's sort of talked about. I mean, I get the sense that, like, my wife just got a doctorate in Ed Policy and Leadership, right? So this is certainly like front and center, right? But like, if you think about the number of, of folks who get doctorates who look like you, my wife is, you know, it's like a, it's like a sliver, right?
Ron Rapatalo:And so the knowledge to have the systemic lens, particularly in K12 education, to understand that the infrastructure of the system matters as much as your aspirational values, right, is something that I think it's easy not to see it because if you're not taught what the common definition of the systems are, you just think, well, I just am doing what I gotta do. Right? You just are reacting rather than understanding with the lens to be able to redesign, if not build something different. Right?
Natalie Neris:Yes. So I'm gonna answer that in two ways. Yes. One is probably a more recent, like, understanding. Mhmm.
Natalie Neris:And that is that as black and brown people, we carry a level of ancestral wisdom around system in our DNA. Do. When I look like ancestrally, my ancestors had to overcome the systems that they had to navigate, that they have to figure out overcome. We talk about emergent strategy, think about having to be oppressed in the way that many of our ancestors were oppressed, and they had to figure out how they were going to make freedom emerge for themselves and their families. And so I think that there is an ancestral wisdom when it comes to systems that is in us.
Natalie Neris:And what I think my experiences, and I'm sort of testing out this theory with people, that there are triggering events. There are positions that you are put into that you that require you to tap into that where you remember because it's in you. And so when you think about the next time you're in rooms really talking about a systemic problem and a systemic solution, and observe who's bringing the solution that makes sense that that pause room. I think that we can be an ancestralism about systems that is in us. And if we can know, believe that own that and move with that, with greater confidence and intentionality, we would go very far.
Natalie Neris:So I think the other is that I was a good teacher. I was a good teacher, I understood, I understood the connections between standards, objectives, assessments, understood us
Ron Rapatalo:how to
Natalie Neris:teach students, understood instruction. I felt for so long in my career that that I was like, God created me to be a teacher. I've since learned that that doesn't have to necessarily exist solely in a classroom, but really make complex, accessible is something that is part of what feels important in my in my vocational calling. And so that learning, I would say, first came from being a teacher and understanding the science of teaching, understanding that teaching is a science before it is an art. When I understood the pattern, and if we go back to adrienne maree brown emergent strategy, the fact is that it's the same pattern at different scales.
Natalie Neris:Yeah. So we talk about it's the same pattern, we talk about what's happening in classroom in a single lesson, what's happening in a school from vision to execution, in network in a district, matter pain, scale, greater complexity and intersection, of course. But I would say, where I, my awakening on how systems work really started as a classroom teacher. And, and I think that that is actually such a superpower. Yeah.
Natalie Neris:Because there are people who, who perhaps were in the classroom and never got to master the science, right? Or folks who are doing amazing work in education, but we're just never at the smallest part of the system, which is standing in front of students impacting every day. And I feel like because I understand what it takes to impact students directly and to really move them closer to better outcomes and achievement, it helps me to backwards map any other part of the system that I'm working through. And I'm always like, how's that gonna work for a classroom? Yeah.
Natalie Neris:The school leader. How's that gonna work as a principal?
Ron Rapatalo:Yeah.
Natalie Neris:Okay. So we're moving to standards based grading. That sounds fantastic. How are we gonna teach everybody the standard? How does that how does that how are we gonna scaffold that down?
Natalie Neris:So I would say that is the beginning. And I had a friend tell me when I said to him that I really thought that being a teacher is what made me, you know, great at leading systems. He's like, no, I think that you're great at leading systems. You can see the matrix because that's just your gifting and you just use it first in the classroom, which I appreciate perspective.
Ron Rapatalo:Yeah. I love the way you broke that down. Right? And I wanna elevate ancestral wisdom part of what you just said because that really stuck with me, and I think that's something that we are often taught not to be explicit about. It's something that in my Filipinoness, I think when you mentioned that, I immediately thought of the ancestral wisdom that lives in my body about how my parents came from Caloocan City.
Ron Rapatalo:I was the only one born in America. They were living, six of them, six kids, my mom and dad in, like, a one bedroom, like, shanty.
Natalie Neris:Wow.
Ron Rapatalo:And my father decided to come in America in the seventies 1970 to find something different. Now granted, this happens under, you know, the Immigration and Naturalization Act of '65 that allowed 18 plus million Asian Americans and many others to come into this country when immigration policy did not allow for that, which came under the the black civil rights activists in particular fighting for that. Right? So I'm not I would not be here, I would argue, without that. Right.
Ron Rapatalo:Right? And so but I think of, like, that fight. My dad starting from the West Coast with other Filipino fathers, not finding employment out there somehow and coming into New York, finding employment, petitioning my mom, the other six, months before martial law got instituted by Marcos. They came in April. Martial law got instituted November.
Ron Rapatalo:Oh, born in June. Right? And so for me, there's something about just even the fight to get here to America, and there was more fighting to be done and that just, I think, sits deep within me, and I try to I wish I knew those stories, but I sort of feel it. Both of my parents have passed, but I feel like they constantly talk to me about what it was like to live. And now that I'm older, I'm like, well, now that you got kids and now you're in all these, like, positions and and things.
Ron Rapatalo:You're in these rooms unlike us. This is what we'd advise you. And I feel that often when I coach people and I give people advice in ways that never make sense to me until it comes out my fucking mouth. So that's literally how I think. I mean, it was like, how did you know to say that?
Ron Rapatalo:I'm like, ancestral wisdom? It's a witch literally, I don't. Right? It just but that comes with embodiment and practice too, I would say. Right?
Ron Rapatalo:That's been kind of I imagine you have a story of, like, where you get that from. Like, that really my mom had the ability when I was younger, and I didn't always believe it, you'll hear from people that passed. I have a very I have the same ability, which then translates into I can also I tap into people really quickly. I see people fast is what I call it. Right?
Ron Rapatalo:And so oftentimes, if they talk about someone that's passed in their lives, inevitably, you know what happens, Natalie? I hear from that person in the convo.
Natalie Neris:That's so interesting.
Ron Rapatalo:Yeah. It's I think when people ask, like, hey. You you get people to trust you so fast. I'm like, it's like, it's the ancestral wisdom at work all the time. There are things like, I could talk about, like, you know, I'm doing this.
Ron Rapatalo:I'm being present. I'm, like, asking questions, being here. I'm like, yeah, that's the stuff people see here. The deeper stuff is the ancestral wisdom of patterns of millennia, if not more of like ancestors who are embodying me and giving me that wisdom in ways that I can't consciously process is how I think about it. Yeah.
Natalie Neris:Absolutely. The the model said, I think about my mother who she she went on when I got my bachelor's degree, my mother went on and got her bachelor's. When I got my master's, my mother went on and got her master's. So it's Oh, beautiful. Full story.
Natalie Neris:Uh-huh. Her journey alone, you need to interview her. Her journey is Yeah. But but she taught me that everything has a place. She taught me that there's always a path forward.
Ron Rapatalo:Yes.
Natalie Neris:And so I don't see impossibility. I don't see because our ancestors couldn't see impossibility or they couldn't because it was about survival. Was about And so I'm grateful to have that spirit of possibility and optimism in me, even in moments like we're in right now in the world. I'm not one of the people that feels you know, there's so much tragedy and there's so much to be sad about, and I'm sort of one of the people that's like, alright. Let's go then.
Natalie Neris:This is where champions are made. Like, it's game time. Now this is this is what we've been waiting for. Now we push forward. Now we figure out what's next.
Natalie Neris:Now we take advantage of this opportunity and figure out, you know, what our next steps are. And I'm just grateful to have that way of being, and I I definitely get that from my mother.
Ron Rapatalo:Well, it sounds like I may be getting a referral from you to interview your for the next episode of Ronderings TBD. I love it. So, Natalie, we're at that time where I have to ask you the title of the podcast. What is your rendering? What lesson or value do you wanna share with the audience?
Natalie Neris:I would say that your number one asset to leading, whether you're leading in your home, in your community, any space, a large organization, the greatest asset that you can have is a heart of integrity. A heart of integrity makes it so that you are somebody that can grow, that can grow others, that can be humble, that can make mistakes, that can keep going. Think it suggests a lot when someone operates with a heart of integrity. And I sort of feel like you really can't go wrong. Even when I lose, I win if I'm operating with a heart of integrity.
Natalie Neris:Yeah. So I would say for me, that's first and foremost.
Ron Rapatalo:Amen to that. Yeah. I'm I'm, like, literally seeing this image of what a heart of integrity looks like. It makes it like the image I have is like a care bear. Right?
Ron Rapatalo:Yeah. Yeah.
Natalie Neris:What does that mean to, like, lead people with the heart of integrity? And how important is it for us? I think of I think so often of the black and brown students who, when we look at the data of high school graduation and college matriculation, we see our numbers, we see our people in these spaces, and then they graduate and they go into institutions that were not designed for them. But what if they encountered a leader that operated with the heart of integrity, a leader that saw them, a leader that invested them, a leader that saw possibility in them, a leader that created the conditions for them to grow and be impactful. Where could they be?
Natalie Neris:Where could generations after them be? And so the role we have as leaders to operate with the heart of integrity is is, I think, our greatest gift, not just to the missions that we are leading, but also to our missions on Earth.
Ron Rapatalo:Amen to that. Well, Natalie, before we go, how do people find you? What would you like to promote?
Natalie Neris:Yeah, I think you can find me at natalie@rootandreimagine.com. If you're interested in talking systems, systems change.
Ron Rapatalo:Yes.
Natalie Neris:Happy to talk more about that. I'm really working through this framework of theory, practice, and proximity, and really thinking through how those three lenses are such critical intersections, both to understand systems, but also to solve problems within them. So if you're interested in geeking out on that, I'd love to talk.
Ron Rapatalo:I think a lot of Ronderings guests as well as Ronderings fans would love to geek out you on that. I love the very kind of, like, petty intellectual yet hard conversation that we had today. So really grateful that you made time out of your Sunday afternoon to chat with me and Natalie. Absolutely.
Natalie Neris:Thank you.
Ron Rapatalo:So in the words of one of my sports heroes, Neon Dion Sanders, we always come in hot with guests like Dr. Natalie Peace y'all.
Natalie Neris:Thank you.
Ron Rapatalo:Whoo, fam, that conversation with Dr. Natalie Neris was nourishment. What I hope you take with you is this, leadership is not about knowing everything. It's about seeing yourself clearly, doing your healing, and have the courage to lead with integrity in systems that weren't built for us in the first place. Natalie reminded us that the collapse we're experiencing isn't the end, it's the opening.
Ron Rapatalo:That faith, wisdom, and proximity matter when we're trying to design what comes next. She showed us how trauma shows up in kids' bodies, in our own bodies, in our work, and how naming it is part of liberating ourselves and the people we serve. She showed us what it looks like to hold a vision while refusing to burn out, trying to push it through broken infrastructure. She showed us that everything has a place, there's always a path forward, We're willing to look honestly. Since today's Rondering, where's integrity asking you to grow?
Ron Rapatalo:Where is faith, however you define it, finding it, pushing you toward bold leadership? Thank you, Natalie, for the gift of your presence and your truth, and thank you listeners for coming back to this space week after week. Until next time, keep Rondering. Peace. Before we wrap, I've gotta give a huge shout out to the crew that helps make Ronderings come alive every week, Podcasts That Matter.
Ron Rapatalo:Their mission, simple but powerful. Every great idea deserves a voice. So if you've been sitting on that spark of a show or story, don't overthink it. Just start. Head to podcastmatter.com, and let their team bring your vision to life.
Ron Rapatalo:Till next time, keep rondering, keep growing, keep sharing your voice with the world. Peace. Thank you for listening to today's Ronderings. I enjoyed hanging out with me and my guests, and I hope you leave with something worth chewing on. If it made you smile, think, or even roll your eyes in a good way, pass it along to someone else.
Ron Rapatalo:I'm Ron Rapatalo, and until next time, keep rondering, keep laughing, and keep becoming.
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