Ron Rapatalo: What's up? I'm Ron Rapatalo, and this is the Ronderings podcast. Around here, I sit down with guests for real, unpolished conversations about the lessons and values that shaped them. And I'll be right there with you, sharing my own take, laughing at myself when I need to, and wondering out loud about this messy thing called life.

Ron Rapatalo: Glad you pulled up a chair. Let's get into it. This is one of those conversations where I probably should have brought a whiteboard, but Sean Precious and I went deep. Sean has spent twenty four years in K-12 education as a teacher, principal, principal manager, assistant superintendent, charter authorizer, chief people officer, and now chief academic officer of his own consulting firm Together4Schools.

Ron Rapatalo: He's worked at districts, charters, state partners, and nonprofits. In other words, Sean has pretty much seen the whole K-12 ecosystem from the inside. What I love about Sean's perspective is that it isn't really about having all the answers. It's about humility, about asking better questions, and it's about recognizing people close to the work usually know a hell of a lot more than we give them credit for.

Ron Rapatalo: We talk about people, talent strategy, people leadership, culture, fear versus love, why becoming a manager doesn't magically make you good at managing people, why K-12 systems need to stop treating talent like a series of vacancies that needs to be filled. Then Sean gets really honest about his own career journey, including getting feedback that he was bombing interviews and what he did about it.

Ron Rapatalo: These are some serious practical career lessons in the mix... In this one. To get comfortable, Sean Precious is on Ronderings. Ronderings fam. You know, the Teach For America thirty fifth anniversary summit coming in October, which I'm really bummed I can't make because I know y'all read it, but I got a kid all the way.

Ron Rapatalo: It's during my paternity leave, so I will be there in spirit, maybe someone will share a fat head of me, so I'll be there with my big head, but I will not be there. But I think in theme with that, I have in my Ronderings guest list, have always talked to folks in my TFA world because they're some of my favorite people in the world, and of course including my wife, DC 2003 in the house, Shanita Rapatalo.

Ron Rapatalo: I want to introduce another TFA buddy of mine that we overlapped and working together when I was briefly at the national office for eighteen months. My homie Sean Precious is on the mic. Sean, how you doing today?

Sean Precious: Hey, Ron. How's it going? I will be in Vegas. So I know. We'll get that fat head going, and it'll be like you'll be there in spirit.

Ron Rapatalo: I know, I'm about to like order, so funny story, I did Principal for a Day through Pencil, shout out to my homegirl Jessica Bino, who's the president over there, and they do in New York City a yearly principal for a day event. So one of the schools that was principal for a day, they surprised me with an assembly where all of the kids had a head...

Ron Rapatalo: My head on a popsicle stick. Not a big fat head, but, like, pretty close. And so I still have one or two of those at home. I was like, I turned so beet red. It takes a lot for me to turn beet red.

Sean Precious: Was gonna say that would be, like, my worst fear if I walked into an environment like that.

Ron Rapatalo: It was like, holy shit, they're all like, yeah, I was like, y'all spent money on this? This is this is pretty crazy. I... But I went with... It was it was totally just really fun. So I have to find out where that stuff gets paid so that Sean I will have you pick it up at the FedEx Kinkos or whatever, FedEx office that'll probably be at the hotel the TFA is having the summit. It's like, where'd you get that Ron head?

Sean Precious: I got you. I got you.

Ron Rapatalo: Awesome, Sean. So brother, why don't we go right into it? What is your story?

Sean Precious: Yeah. I've been thinking a lot about this and knowing that we would overlap in our Teach For America background. I do remember a phrase that I learned early on when I was with TFA. You and I know we worked together at Institute even when I was still in college, but I may have first heard about this when I was training to be a teacher. But a value of Teach For America is, which it still is today, but was respect and humility.

Ron Rapatalo: Oh, God. Yes. One of many amazing selection criteria.

Sean Precious: And so I sort of carry those two words with me, in everything that I do. And I think early on in my career as a classroom teacher and as a white man working in predominantly communities of color, it was very much about how I entered, both with respect for those that I was working with and incredible humility and awareness of the privilege and the power that I was bringing to this situation.

Sean Precious: And lately, for me, humility has sort of evolved, and I've really think of myself as a learner every day. I've spent my career learning that leadership, it's less about having the answer or telling people what to do or articulating a strategic plan and then bringing that vision to life. And it's more about creating the conditions, the leadership conditions where people that I'm supporting and the organizations where I've worked can ultimately do their best work.

Sean Precious: For me, that's just been my biggest learning. It's been the biggest part of my journey. As you know, and I'm sure a lot of folks that are listening when they hear TFA, you... People will know I began my career as a teacher. I eventually, after a few years actually working on staff at Teach For America, I eventually became a principal.

Sean Precious: And so in the two thousands... I graduated college in 2002. And the two thousands, I spent most of my career inside a schoolhouse or most of that decade close to kids, close to teachers, close to families. And it it is those people that I worked with that really drive a lot of what I do today.

Sean Precious: I really try to think about in everything that I'm doing when I'm supporting at the district or the systems or even the state level, how are people going to experience this? How are kids going to be impacted by this? How will families be impacted? And and ultimately, I do a lot of work with leaders inside districts.

Sean Precious: And so the employees that are driving to a schoolhouse every day, whether it's a teacher, a paraprofessional, the principal, somebody in central office that's supporting those folks, how are they gonna be impacted by this? And what really is that people experience that we are trying to foster and improve? After being a principal, I became like a principal manager, and I know the the title is different in every district.

Ron Rapatalo: And someone was assistant superintendent?

Sean Precious: I never know what to call myself because if I say assistant superintendent, people are like, well, what's that? But the title has been everything from director to regional superintendent, to assistant superintendent. But the bulk of my systems level experience was supporting academic strategy, supporting principals directly, and really being that bridge between a superintendent and board's vision and what ultimately needs to happen inside a classroom.

Sean Precious: And I think it is absolutely the best space to be inside an organization or a system to really be sort of, again, that bridge between what matters most and what ultimately is being dictated through, you know, board edict, state statute Superintendent's vision. And it just keeps coming back to me over and over and over again.

Sean Precious: Like, what would this actually feel like to the person closest to the work? And alongside all of that, I've done a lot of work in talent management Capital strategy, all the phrases that, you know, are almost cliche now. Right? At the end of the day, you know, there's sort of two things that I'm always thinking about in doing this work.

Sean Precious: One is, like, do we have the talent systems in place to find and keep the very best people in front of our kids every single day, which I think any HR practice in any industry should be constantly thinking about. Right? Like, it's recruitment and retention and really, you know, attracting great people, developing them, and engaging them in a way that they wanna stay.

Sean Precious: And, you know, we'll get in care of that. Then the other piece is culture, which I think means something different to everybody. I think that is one of those buzzwords that I think is really tough to define. So I very much think of culture as, like, is it... It's what our people repeatedly experience.

Sean Precious: So, like, it's not values written on a wall. It's it's ultimately, like, how leaders respond to the conditions around them. It's whether or not people receive feedback. Like, it's who gets recognized and who doesn't get recognized. It's ultimately whether people, particularly leaders at the highest levels, do what they say they will do.

Sean Precious: And so again, I think, I think on one dimension about systems, and again, I think HR was really popular in 2012. Everybody was redesigning their teacher evaluation systems, and we did have all these words thrown around like human capital change strategy.

Ron Rapatalo: I remember I was working in Newark Public Schools at the time.

Sean Precious: It was hot.

Ron Rapatalo: It was a hot time there naturally around those words.

Sean Precious: Yeah, absolutely. And I think part of what I've learned recently, I was most recently working as an interim chief people officer with Alliance College-Ready in Los Angeles. Yes. And it brought me back very much to, gosh, HR is not the sexy thing anymore. Talent has, sort of... Everyone's talking about the shortages and how tough it is in HR, but we're not always talking about sort of those underlying conditions that take years to build, foster, and develop that really can transform the culture inside an organization.

Sean Precious: And I had the great privilege of spending the 2,000 tens, most of the 2,000 tens, from 2,000 '8 to 2,021 in two systems that had some of the strongest NAEP growth in the country at the time. So I worked as a school leader in Washington DC, and then I worked as a principal manager in the Denver Public Schools.

Sean Precious: And, it was in both of those places where I really learned about the importance of, again, people's systems and culture to drive results for kids.

Ron Rapatalo: I mean, you and I can... There could be, like, five episodes that we talk about talent. Right? Especially in the systems. Right? Because it's so multifaceted. And we shared this when I was talking with you because you and I have always had candid conversation. We build the level of trust where I think what I would ask you is, a a people leader that's worked district and charter, which is not...

Ron Rapatalo: They're... You're a unicorn, to be clear. There's not... Even a place like Teach for America where there's a lot of amazing people that work in K-12 ed. If I were to put you in a room with nine other random TFA alums, you'd probably... There probably may be one other person who's been district and charter. It's not common from what I found. Right?

Sean Precious: I don't think I knew that. I I... Maybe I did, but, like... And I think I go back to your... Like, my earliest point. Right? Like, for me, it's about respect and humility. And so I've been able to operate very much governance agnostic. It's true. I was the charter authorizer for the Chicago Public Schools, and I've worked in district managed large and small districts.

Sean Precious: Like, at the end of the day, this is about like supporting the people that support kids. And like, I'm not even always aware of that, but I appreciate that. I didn't know it was such a, I didn't know it was such a rarity.

Ron Rapatalo: Yeah. And, you know, I I could probably spend the remaining time in... Going into that within you, like, your Denver and DC context. There's some there's some differences. Like, you know, DC is 50% charter, 50% district. I don't think Denver is that at all. Right? But there's definitely charter and district there.

Sean Precious: Probably more eighty twenty, but

Ron Rapatalo: The question I wanted to ask you is, especially in this time where student enrollment is decreasing K-12 public education. Right? Funding is tighter because what's happening federally is a shit show. There's another way to say it. So that's putting a lot of the heavier burden on states to fund what's happening in public education.

Ron Rapatalo: Right? Philanthropy is pulling in and out depending on your your purview of who's funding what these days. Right? Certainly, things are unfolding a little bit more like not focusing on K-12 education the way that philanthropy did ten years ago, right? And so what I've seen, speaking of the talent world, is talent acquisition teams, and talent teams generally speaking, let me not just focus on like what I know best which is talent acquisition, but talent teams have taken a hit in terms of stat like there's just less people because those are in a time of less resources, less money relatively speaking, not considered as essential as of course teachers in classrooms, etcetera.

Ron Rapatalo: Right? And so I'm finding that there's a continued like a, again, disinvestment in talent leadership and staffing in the K-12 public education space. So I'm gonna point you towards your current consulting project. What are you finding is happening in the world of talent both on the smaller level, maybe single school to, like, the systems level?

Sean Precious: Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting because you mentioned, like, the sort of current burden on states to figure out a lot of this funding mess. And I've had the privilege since I left my last full time role as an assistant superintendent, and I've been doing some consulting around the country, I've had the opportunity to work with four or five different state departments.

Sean Precious: Doing, again, a lot of curriculum implementation like Bluebonnet in Texas. Okay. We're supporting HQIM implementation, doing a lot of coaching work at the state level. And, you know, I think about states like Mississippi and the success they've had with early literacy and gap closure between students of color and white students. And I think about, like, my own former superintendent, Susana Cordova, who is the commissioner here in Colorado.

Sean Precious: I just wanna give a shout out because I think there's a bit of a stigma attached to state departments of, like, oh, they're so slow and bureaucratic, and I I actually think they're doing incredible work. And I think the the states that I've worked with, Kentucky, Texas, Tennessee, here in Colorado, are are packed with incredibly talented leaders that, to your point, do have the resources to marshal to get them to systems and districts and schools where there is the most need.

Sean Precious: So I actually... I I know I'm not totally answering your question yet, but I think part of what we need at the state level and certainly at the district level is to really bring back a focus around whatever you wanna call it. Right? I know no one likes human capital anymore. It does sound kind of cold.

Sean Precious: But, like, we need to return to loving our people and thinking incredibly critically about what are we doing to attract, develop, retain, and engage what I believe is the most diverse generationally speaking workforce That we have ever experienced, you know, at least in the last twenty, thirty year. So you you still do have people in front of kids every day that started teaching before we even had the Internet, married right up against first and second year teachers that went to college in the middle of the pandemic.

Sean Precious: And and only know sort of social media and sort of nonhuman ways of of interacting. And you have them both within the same schoolhouse teaching the same kids, interacting with each other. And we don't have a comprehensive talent strategy. We have, you know, one person sitting downtown overwhelmed with how many teacher vacancies there are. Substitute teaching, like

Ron Rapatalo: Which is real. That that is a real urgent thing happening in K-12 ed still. I was dealing with that Newark Public Schools back in, you know, 2012. I mean, it's not

Sean Precious: changed, unfortunately. So we are we are filling those holes, whether it's on a daily basis or a yearly basis, but that's where the energy is going. Getting bodies into classrooms without stepping back and saying, wait a second. Why is it so hard right now to recruit people? What do we need to innovate about the profession?

Sean Precious: What do we need to be doing in terms of really building the capacity of anyone that is supporting other adults to be really strong people leaders and people managers. We've gotten away from, you know, supporting those skill sets and building in that area. We think now because we have a teacher evaluation framework that everyone knows how to implement that, that everyone knows how to evaluate and supervise and coach and retain their people.

Sean Precious: And, no, those are four very distinct skill sets that really require a lot of training, a lot of coaching and modeling for our people managers. And, it's it's not it's not prioritized. It's not funded. It it very much does feel like a box that we checked fifteen years ago that, like, no, this is not a one and done.

Sean Precious: Like, you you don't build a framework for three years with money from the Gates Foundation and then feel like you can move on to something else, like, we've got to invest in our people. And I come back to, I think, the power that some of our SEAs have to say to themselves, it is more than curriculum.

Sean Precious: It's more than high quality instructional materials. It is more than the science of reading and the science of math. It is more than grow your own pipelines and really investing money in, recruiting from within your local community. It's about saying, are the 50 key managers inside your organization or system? And what are you doing to develop them to be better for all the people that they support?

Ron Rapatalo: Yeah. You know, an observation I've had about the K12 Ed space, which I think is not, I don't want to put this solely in K12 Ed, but I think it's not terribly dissimilar from like how folks grow up to manage and lead, right? Is you have people that are not all the time, but often enough good at their job, good at teaching.

Ron Rapatalo: But we realize that you know there's the instructional leadership and the people leadership starts to diverge after a while. Right? And I think that's to actually bring that together. I'm curious from your experience Sean because I'm talking to someone who is led a successful school as a principal, has worked through the systems level, charter and district, and has consulted with SEAs and with charters and districts across the country.

Ron Rapatalo: So your perspective... I'm I'm really curious to pick your perspective on how do you start to, like, lessen that gap because I I find that that gap is built systemically. It's just like you have instruction lead. Let's pour these HQIM, this, this, that. It's like the people leadership becomes sort of like held within instructional leadership, but it's not given its own weights as like we need to focus on people leadership that is part and parcel as important as instruction leadership. So I'm curious to get your thoughts on that.

Sean Precious: It's a nuance. Right? I think... Like, I mean, one of the challenges is, like, we have a lot of buzzwords in education. But I think some people some people think instructional leadership, the ability... Let's take Paul Bambrick-Santoyo, who, you know, I was, part of Relay. I was in Leverage Leadership, Deeply, deeply respect the work of Paul and and Absolutely.

Sean Precious: Everything that they have done. And I think some people will grab a copy of his book, whether it's Leverage Leadership, whether it's getting better faster. Yeah. And they will think that coaching a teacher around a bite sized action step to improve their instruction is people leadership or is talent leadership or is developing that person.

Sean Precious: And I think that's part of it, but I'm I'm talking about something much, much broader. And frankly, I'm talking about principals. I'm talking about central office directors. I'm talking about new managers within systems, schools, and state departments, maybe that were inside a classroom and are now today doing something that impacts 20 different districts.

Sean Precious: I can't tell you how many folks I've worked with in Texas over the last couple of years that are supporting curriculum implementation vis a vis coaching and influencing multiple teams of folks across 20 different districts. And six months ago, they were teaching in a classroom, and they have not been explicitly taught the skill set of how to lead, support, coach other people.

Sean Precious: These these skill sets are not transferable. To be a good instructional coach does not necessarily mean you are gonna be a good people manager. And we tend to conflate those things. Like, oh, you've been a teacher leader. It's time for you to be an assistant principal. You've been an assistant principal, now it's time for you to be a principal, and nowhere along the way are we stopping and saying, do you know how to facilitate a one on one with somebody on your team?

Sean Precious: Are you even having one on ones? Do you know that's a... Do you know how to recognize and reward the adults on your team the same way you recognized and rewarded students in the classroom? And, and that's the other thing I always say is like, you know, we do a lot of this every day as teachers.

Sean Precious: I very much subscribe, and this, this does come from my time with Teach For America. I very much think of the role of classroom teacher as a leader of others. You are, you are leading kids around end of year goals and a vision, and you're building culture, and you're recognizing and rewarding, and you're also providing corrective action when things are not where they need to be.

Sean Precious: You're doing everything a CEO does, and yet we leave working with kids and we start working with adults a lot of those skills do not translate. Yeah. And we think the way to get adults to do what we need to do is by making a strategic plan, building 17 checklists in Google Docs.

Sean Precious: And then just getting people to do that, and sort of managing them, but not really leading them. And certainly not developing them to be strong managers and leaders. It's just get this done or tick these things off your list or implement this curriculum. But there isn't a lot of how are we gonna do this work through the people on our team and how are we gonna support them to get there.

Ron Rapatalo: Yeah. This makes me think, Sean, because I think when we chatted before I hit the record button, right, you were on a swim team in high school. Right? I imagine without, like, knowing the full weeds of like exactly how your swim team was, is that there was a culture established, got along with your teammates, there was coaching, right?

Ron Rapatalo: And the semblance of team, is something that probably related to Teach for America's respect for others is something that it's stuck with you right as a core value even before you knew that Teach for America had respect for others in joining Teach for America right. So I guess my question is I'm gonna go from this macro to the micro, right?

Ron Rapatalo: When it comes to your own career journey right which we've talked about yearly right What did you learn about respect for others before you came for Teach for America that like solidified, yeah, this makes sense to me. Yeah.

Sean Precious: I was bullied a lot in middle school. And I hid a lot of that from my family at the time. You know, I didn't wanna sort of come home every day complaining or burdening what I was going through. But I remember I was in eighth grade, and I I started to open up a little bit to my dad.

Sean Precious: And, again, this is probably the first time I ever really talked about, like, hey. I'm I'm struggling to make friends. I go to school every day and I'm picked on for my last name. And I think a lot of people knew I was gay before I did. Which I can laugh about now.

Ron Rapatalo: It seems like that was a painful journey in and of itself.

Sean Precious: But my dad said something to me when I was 13 years old. Never forgotten. He said to me, you know, Sean, everybody puts their pants on one leg at a time. And I I didn't quite get in that moment what he was saying, but what I believe he planted in that moment was the foundations for humility and understanding that we are all struggling with something.

Sean Precious: There is a whole lot about other people that we can't see, we don't fully understand. Today, with some of the work that we've done around equity and racial equity, it's, you know, what's above the iceberg and what's below that is sort of unseen and unknown. But I think being able to begin to foster some resilience around what I was experiencing very much led me to get curious about people and understand.

Sean Precious: And so I just... And I also think, you know, somewhere along the way, I learned early on the best way to sort of survive, whether it was to overcome bullying, whether it was to sort of get through high school, it was to sort of make friends, like really good friends for the first time in my life in college.

Sean Precious: Yeah. And certainly in my twenties, in my career, my early career as a teacher and a principal, I very much learned to assimilate to sort of that dominant I culture that hid my sexuality. Honestly, I hid... As a working professional, I... At least I thought I was hiding it. I'm sure people suspected, but I hid my sexuality.

Sean Precious: I hid that aspect of my identity until I was 32 years old, until I started actually working in the Denver public schools. And so I think, again, humility was fostered early on, and it also sort of came with the understanding that I can have less pain in my life if I subscribe to what sort of the heteronormative dominant culture, which, of course, I could participate in every day as a white man.

Sean Precious: So from a gender and race perspective That's quite easy. Was harder in other dimensions. But I became an observer of everyone around me because the more I could understand how to fit in, I knew the less pain I would experience, which I think does stem back to some of the bullying that I experienced as a kid.

Sean Precious: But it made me incredibly astute at being able to read a room, fostering emotional intelligence at a very early age. The ability to work across lines of difference be able to manage large complex bodies of work. These are all sort of qualities that we would want, we would want good people managers to have.

Sean Precious: And I think some of my earlier life experiences accelerated that for me. I was very much the classroom teacher that got things done through relationships with my kids, not necessarily systems. So I was that I am spike. If you remember the TFA selection.

Ron Rapatalo: Oh my God. Influencing motivating, man. Come on. Yeah, I remember selection was such a seminal part of my TFA experience.

Sean Precious: I know. Right? I, I, I loved, I, I love that work. And I, think the other thing that I didn't mention early on is from a more technical perspective. Yeah. At a very young age, Teach For America, when I worked on staff, gave me incredible leadership opportunities to lead teams at a young age.

Sean Precious: I really learned about, like, things like how to actually do an interview that's behavioral based and probe for responses, not just ask a question and and move on after somebody answers. I learned about things like selection models and how to really hire for competencies and get the right people on your team. And yeah, I was leading teams of people at 25 years old, And other so those experiences as well were readably formative to me to really get my focus to sort of constantly be on people, and really thinking about how can we best support the folks that are closest to students every day.

Sean Precious: And what I would offer for those that are not in K-12 education is like, it's still the same principle that applies. Right? Like, how can we best support the people that are closest to your customers, to your swimming analogy from earlier? Like, how can coaches best support the people that are in the pool every day? Like,

Ron Rapatalo: what are those conditions? Without shouting at them all the time, which is

Sean Precious: Exactly. Without without using fear tactics, without using command and control. I think, you know, when we are operating from a space of authority as leaders in any sector, when it becomes make your bed every day because I said so is how you're getting work done, you may be checking the box, but you are eroding the conditions and you are creating a talent and culture problem for your team and your organization much further downstream.

Sean Precious: And so that's, again, the lesson that I would offer folks is we very much are still operating in these pressure cookers. We are putting so much pressure on our principals to get results and to get test scores up and to decrease, you know, absenteeism just all And, the metrics that are out you know, I'm not somebody who's opposed to, accountability or evaluation systems, but it does put a lot of pressure on our people.

Sean Precious: And if we don't marry that with a lot of love and a lot of support and really thinking quite strategically about the conditions we are either creating or not creating. Again, we may get results, but it's only gonna be in the short run. And we're gonna be burning out our HR departments behind the scenes because it's gonna be a revolving door at every level of our organizations.

Sean Precious: And we know, the historic turnover that we're seeing right now at every level in education. Teachers are leaving the profession in droves. We have principal shortages and we have organizations with no pipelines for people that wanna be principals or wanna move into superintendent positions. That all is a problem right now. Again, fifteen years ago in the Denver Public Schools, we had 15 people in line for every principal vacancy.

Sean Precious: We had a very different challenge of how do we keep people that are ready to advance that we literally don't have the openings for? And now it is staggering to me what we have to do when we have high school math vacancy or when we have an assistant principal vacancy or a principal resigns two weeks before the school year starts.

Sean Precious: Boy. We have, oh boy. There are pipelines in... So that is also, that is also something that keeps me up at night and reminds me of the importance of coming back to really strong people strategy at every level. You asked me earlier, like, what are what are some of the micro things that people can do?

Sean Precious: And I I didn't totally answer that question, but if you can hear my voice right now and you're listening to this conversation, I would ask, like, where does HR sit in the organization that you work with? Are they reporting directly to the CEO or to the superintendent? Is, are the folks in the HR department deeply grounded in the employee experience and really thinking about the challenges that are keeping our people managers up at night?

Sean Precious: What is the professional development for people managers in your organization? And just really reflecting on some of the questions, that is something that anybody at any level can do and can bring, you know, their feedback and their perspective. Talk to your manager, talk to somebody you trust, reach out to your organization's leadership, and, and be an advocate for supporting people and for really improving the employee experience.

Ron Rapatalo: Yeah, something we talked about Sean before we recorded in a previous convo some weeks ago was around how so many systems, right, the instructional leaders incorporate the people leadership training themselves, right. That actually talent in HR departments, more around talent acquisition and compliance. I mean there's some other stuff you can add to that, right?

Ron Rapatalo: And so then you're expecting instruction leaders at the weight of their jobs, right? And by design, they're looking for results. Like you can argue cynically that I could get results without focusing on people leadership but is that a long term sustainable strategy? Of course it isn't. But you can coach to that, evaluate to that and get results for some time just like in sports.

Ron Rapatalo: You can get some of the result and you're not focused on the holistic person and the experience at some level, you're not going to win over time and in fact will take a huge enormous dip. So I'm wondering in your work, Sean, where are you seeing examples of being able to shift that mindset?

Ron Rapatalo: Right? Because I imagine some of the places where you work, that was a priority of your supervisor or whoever the CEO super... The superintendent was. Right? That would say oftentimes if that's the priority of the person leading the shift, that person shifts systems a lot. I don't think people realize the power of the person leading the thing, principal to school, you know, the CEO of a charter network, the superintendent of a school district has to be able to say, I'm going to change the systems to allow for these things to happen. But my worry is where things are already built like that, how do you then shift it? That for me is hard.

Sean Precious: Yeah. I think... I I mean, I think that, oh, that that is, I know that's... We have seven hours.... More podcast episodes. We're gonna have to do a sequel. Yeah. I would I would say a couple of things. I would say, again, it's... I I come back to... This is like a cheesy riff on, like, the Oprah quote that she's known for.

Sean Precious: Like Okay. They think Oprah... And and I may be misquoting this, or maybe it's not attributed to Oprah, but I think I saw Oprah say this, like, that basically everything boils down to, like, every emotion, every sort of feeling and action, it boils down to either fear or love. And what I mean by that in the context of your question and some of the things that are keeping us up right now is that there are a lot of people in positions of power.

Sean Precious: There are a lot of politicians right now. There are a lot of school principals and district leaders that are operating from a place of fear. Either they are afraid that they're gonna lose their job if they don't improve their school. They're afraid if they're a superintendent that someone's gonna get elected to their board that's gonna put pressure on them.

Sean Precious: We all, regardless of your political views, are operating in a heightened sense of everything I do is being watched, recorded, put online. And I, I think that is just fostering a lot of uncertainty and people sort of going into work every day, having to protect, clamp down, and control others around them in order to get results.

Sean Precious: And I think what I would offer is the is the converse of all of that. The more we can lead with love, which I think part of that is acknowledging publicly that ways we have operated historically or the reason we have done things in the past is now outdated. We really are in a different world in 2026 coming out of the pandemic.

Sean Precious: And with the increase that we're seeing in technology, in AI, in social media, the way we have to lead and support a team is different. And so acknowledging that we have to shift our practices, and when I talk about leading with love, I'm I'm not trying to be woo woo. I'm not talking about sitting around in a circle and singing Kumbaya.

Sean Precious: Like, we know how hard the work is. We know how quickly we need to move every day on behalf of students and teachers. But what I am talking about is really leading from a place of service and support. And it goes back to, again, my biggest learning in the last twenty twenty. I'm going into my, I'm going into my twenty fourth year, in a year. I guess next year I'll get my, I'll get my pin.

Ron Rapatalo: You're a silver star. That's right.

Sean Precious: But it's been two decades. And the the thing that I've learned more than anything else is that that people know what to do. People have the answers. We love to say that we need to build capacity, that we need to teach people how to do these things. And we do. There are explicit skills at every level that we do need to teach people.

Sean Precious: And we need to understand and empower people that our folks know more than they're letting on. And like, we need to be asking more questions. We need to be listening more. We need to be redesigning systems based on the input that we gather from the folks we work with.

Ron Rapatalo: Is the respect for others part, yeah.

Sean Precious: Yeah. And we need to be okay with saying, again, to our boards publicly, to our teams in meetings, we, we need to be able to say the way we've been operating needs to shift. And we are gonna do some things differently that are much more about serving, supporting, coaching. I go back to your, your swimming analogy, right?

Sean Precious: It's what coaches do on the side of the pool every single practice. Are holding a high bar. It's a rigorous workout. It's aligned to the goals of where a team wants to go, but they're also there. They're present. They're proximate. They are observing. They are coaching. They are supporting. They're there with a high five when people are getting out of that pool and they're not commanding from up high and just telling people what to do.

Sean Precious: And, and that's what we, we were, we have been there and we are there in some places. Yeah. I think we need to be thinking much more systemically about how we fund structure and support systems to be able to do those types of things and really incentivize this in a way that can allow people to lead more from a place of love.

Sean Precious: And again, if love is too woo woo, like what I really mean is leading from a place of service, leading from a place of support, being able to have the time and space to check-in with your people on a weekly basis, which means you're not bogged down with a whole lot of other things that you're asking your managers and directors and principals to do.

Sean Precious: I I believe in the power of people. And I want a world and I want systems where we are creating and fostering those conditions for the very best of people to flourish and thrive.

Ron Rapatalo: Yeah. I mean, I I can hear the passion and energy in your voice Sean, and get... And and having gotten to know you over these last twenty years, right, it's something I know you mean with every part of your soul in your heart. So I commend you for that, right, because I think, you know, for me there's a difference between like that in 2026, I think saying leading with love is a little bit unpopular to say, right, because you know when you get to the systemic view rights like you know I've heard people say and I would agree with them right organizations whether for profit nonprofit schools were never designed with love in mind and so a lot of folks will say well, you can't lead an organization with love in mind because love and family, which I I take to be part and parcel, frankly.

Ron Rapatalo: Right? And family is not just blood, that you can't run an organization like family because at the end of it all, you have to run a business, whatever the organization is. Right? And so, you know... But I think there are components of what you and I are talking about with love, the respect, the service, the empathy.

Ron Rapatalo: If you tie that down, it's like maybe it's not every aspect of the way you would love a family member, but the way that you like love in terms of the service, I think are things that have become really easy to say I'm not going to focus on that because if we don't when I get cynical, if we don't get this result, excuse my language, fuck love.

Ron Rapatalo: We're trying to get result. I'm not trying to like, I'm not here to be anybody's friend or like have some... It just... For me, I think the pressure that people are under are are are creating conditions where people across the board are are going against, I think, their, like, kind of default way of wanting to be.

Ron Rapatalo: They're they're doing something they think the moment calls for, which is having... When you have to do more with less, is to not bring... Like, to triple down on those values would... is my

Sean Precious: Absolutely. Right? And, like, you know, there's probably some people out there that are rolling their eyes at, like, you know, some of these terms. Don't mean love in the romantic sense, but I would ask people to think about the very best organizations that they know, that they respect. It could be organizations or teams.

Ron Rapatalo: Costco!

Sean Precious: Yeah, well, I was... It's so funny you mentioned that because, like, that was the example I was gonna use. You think an organization like Costco that, like, is well known for valuing their people, and maybe that's the phrase we should use, right? Like, I don't know if they're leading with love, but they value the hell out of their people. And they value

Ron Rapatalo: their customers. Have you shopped in person at Costco recently?

Sean Precious: Oh, just three days ago.

Ron Rapatalo: Right? They're so nice there and hope it is. I've never had a bad experience going to Costco. Don't think it exists.

Sean Precious: Absolutely. And again, I think their employees go that extra mile or the customer has a unique experience inside that organization because the people working there. Are supported so well. And so I I think that's that's an example that I think will resonate with a lot of folks. It's it's not just within education.

Sean Precious: Yeah. But I also think we we do a lot of blaming, what I call blaming downhill. So if you sit in a room of principals, all they do is complain about their teachers that aren't doing this and aren't doing that. When I sit in rooms with superintendents, all they wanna do is complain about principals.

Sean Precious: When I sit in rooms with state departments, all they wanna do is complain about districts. Everybody is complaining. And and what, again, I would what I would posit is, like, stop judging and and start helping the people that you... If if you're not getting the results you want, like, start helping the people around you, and start asking them for what they need to show up as their best self every day at work.

Ron Rapatalo: Yeah. So, Sean, you're one of the models to me. I'm gonna go back to the micro even though there's been, you know, mac mac... Macro micro micro micro. I do take... Pay attention to, like, notes when you put in the Calendly about the macro of talent and the micro of talent being your career journey.

Ron Rapatalo: So I'm gonna I'm gonna put you on the spot as someone who I think is modeled from my purview, someone who's intentionally focused on their career journey and career strategy. And so I'm curious, what advice would you give now in 2026 to folks in K-12 year education are navigating their careers strategy. They have been laid off, whether they're gainfully employed, or they're consulting like you maybe thinking building consulting business or coming back full time, right?

Ron Rapatalo: Because there's a there's a whole variation there, right? And I think you've been one of the more astute people I've talked to around like being really smart about how to like put those pieces together and constantly being in community conversation with people.

Sean Precious: Yeah. And I'll be vulnerable. Right? Like, I... My position was eliminated in my last role as an assistant superintendent. I did not... I wouldn't say I exited that district. There was no parade thrown thrown for me when I exited that district, you know, for better or for worse. And it's been really hard over the last few years with interviewing and hiring. I can't tell you how many interviews I've flubbed. I, you know, I feel like I've been a finalist for 20 different positions.

Ron Rapatalo: I I would not be surprised how talented you are. Yeah.

Sean Precious: And I... So I think, like, first and foremost, if you're like me and you haven't interviewed for a while or, you know, I was in the Denver public schools for almost a decade and I I got... I I got rusty. So I I would say the first thing is if if you're looking, if you're, like, actively looking, go back to the, like, the basic skills you learned when you were in high school or college, like, like, even calling, like, your college's, like, alumni career center and, like, doing some interview practice, if you're fortunate enough to be able to afford, like, a coach, like, lean in for some career coaching.

Sean Precious: I'm talking about you, Ron. Like, I... And I I say that to say because I wasn't humble enough about my own self. And I was like, well, I've done this and I've been there and I know that person. I don't need to, like, practice how to interview, but I have bombed so many interviews.

Sean Precious: And do you know what the hiring manager has said to me? Like, again, I can think of three or four instances just in the last two years. Literally, will say like, we wanted to offer you this job, Sean, but you bombed the interview. So like, I don't know if that's everyone else's experience, but if you're out there and interviewing and you're in that mid career stage, I'm 45 years old, so I've got some time to go in my career, but I've also, I've got two decades of experience and like, I've done a lot of cool.

Sean Precious: I've had a lot of really cool opportunities. And so I wasn't humbling myself enough to sort of go back to the basics. And I would extend that to like, have a couple of people look at your resume, like, you know, just the foundational stuff that maybe you haven't had to focus on in a while, brush up on that and, and, you know, practice and train for that like it's your first job.

Sean Precious: That would be the first thing. And then the second thing, touched on this, right? I've offered this advice up to others that have reached out to me. Spend one hour scrolling on your LinkedIn profile, just scrolling, and use that as a way to make a list of a 100 people that you have worked with or that you have been in community with.

Sean Precious: If you're a Teach For America alum like me, you probably know folks that at this point are working all over the country in a variety of organizations. Ron, you were on my list of 100 when I did this in 2023, right? Like I just, you know, and it was tough. I got to somewhere in the like sixties when I was like, oh, I don't, I, I kind of ran out of people.

Sean Precious: I was like, so again, LinkedIn helped me to be like, oh yeah, I worked with that person at that organization twenty years ago. And, start reaching out. Yeah. Whether it is an email, whether it's a text, whether it's a phone call, I reached out to all 100 people. And humble yourself and just ask for advice.

Sean Precious: And I would say that those conversations are what led to my first three clients, as a independent contractor. I guess I should say as the chief academic officer of Together4Schools, which is the company I... That's what led to my first three clients. Yeah. Early twenty twenty four, and things have grown from there.

Sean Precious: And then the third thing I would say, and this is actually advice that comes from Susana Cordova, who I, referenced earlier, who is just one of my all time favorite leaders. She's my former boss as the superintendent in Denver and now as the, commissioner of the Colorado Department of Education. But I remember her saying this to me long before I was ever looking for a job when I was in year three or four with the Denver Public Schools, always be networking.

Sean Precious: And so what I would offer is, like, make that list of a 100, whether you are looking or not, and prioritize, you know, whether it's one conversation a week, whether it's five conversations a week. I don't know what the right number is, and it will probably be a little bit different depending on your circumstances.

Sean Precious: Yes. But try to use some of that downtime, whether it's on your commute, whether it's a Saturday morning when you're walking with your dogs, wherever you have, it might be the twenty minutes that you're boiling water at night to make dinner. I know time is so scarce for so many folks, but really try to make those connections.

Sean Precious: I can't tell you how many people I've connected with over the last, three years, many of whom I'm gonna see in Vegas for this, TFA reunion. And, it's been lovely to reconnect. Sometimes it is awkward. Sometimes it's like, oh, I haven't talked to this person in twenty years and it, it is a little stilted and it is a little awkward.

Sean Precious: Get over it. Because for every 10 conversations I've had, there is always something great that comes from one or two of them. And life has taken me in some really unexpected ways. And I keep coming back to the people, right? Like, for me, and it's not just about driving people systems and talent strategy at work, it's also about fostering a really vibrant community of folks.

Sean Precious: And reminding yourself that, like, we're all in this together. We all wanna help each other. And it's been humbling, it's been hard, but it's also been incredibly rewarding. And I'm just so grateful to those that are out there like you Ron, that have been mentors and supports to me over the years.

Ron Rapatalo: Yeah, I mean I love the way you talked about some very practical career advice for folks in K-12 education, right? You know that the interview coaching is a real one, right, because I just had, you know one of my career coaching clients was interviewing for a really big job, reached out to me and said Ron, I know you're good at this, you've been referred, and I talk about interviews as being very similar to how my friends at entertainment have to audition.

Ron Rapatalo: Yeah. It's not terribly dissimilar. You have to constantly... There's a practice of it, because some of it is like, if I think about the script they have to memorize, it's similar to like you knowing performance tasks notwithstanding, but if you're thinking about your current and past experiences, there's a memory recall part involved.

Ron Rapatalo: Like, how do you talk about it? Unless that's just something you're gifted at, that's so few people, you actually need to practice it. And frankly, I think it's easier to practice. Like, I have all kinds of hacks. Like, yeah, you could technically practice if, like, you record yourself to have a few people watch it.

Ron Rapatalo: That's one way to do it. But it's always easier because I think there's just an interpersonal dynamic of having... Doing it with someone that, like, is trained to do it like me or you or, you know, it's just because you get that dialogue and then it's important to get the feedback. Because during interviews, do you get feedback? Not until you don't get the job, but do you get it and they give you, yeah, it just gets confused. Sometimes you

Sean Precious: don't get feedback. Sometimes you just get... And you're like, what the heck did I do? Like, I've advanced through all these stages and, I thought things were going so well and, and that's even more frustrating, but yeah, I, I do wanna lift up the importance of, coaching and mentoring and like being able to be in dialogue about this.

Sean Precious: This is really personal and this is really hard. Some And people, myself included, really struggle with rejection and vulnerability. I, I talked about spending most of my twenties hiding my sexual identity and like-

Ron Rapatalo: Yeah. I get all of that.

Sean Precious: And I just, I'm hoping there's somebody out there that can hear this conversation and is inspired to just take a risk and reach out to somebody or lean into some formal coaching, because I think AI is in my opinion, and I'm I'm more bullish on AI than probably some others are, but I don't think AI is yet there in the talent space.

Sean Precious: I don't think you can upload your resume to ChatGPT and say, give me feedback. I I think you actually need somebody who has worked in your industry or a career coach or somebody that's skilled in talent and HR to actually be in dialogue with you and understands the nuances of your industry in a way that, like, I just don't think AI quite does yet. So I think coaching is a great

Ron Rapatalo: Context is everything when it comes to coaching. Mean, you and I as coaches, that's so much of it unless that LLM has that exact context of understanding K12 Ed. Like if you build a model for it, I'm sure that the model might be able to spit out something reasonably. If you put it in without chat, whatever the AI tool really knowing you or having your context or the context of your industry, you're gonna get kind of generic advice, which frankly you can Google and... You know, which is not nearly as helpful.

Sean Precious: And the challenge of... If you implement some of those bullets, because I'm sure, like, I use ChatGPT every day. Like, a lot of folks love Claude and, like, it's so helpful. I worry a little bit that sometimes when you're implementing verbatim, like, career advice, you're gonna come off actually sounding like an LLM.

Sean Precious: And it's it's that automaticity and sort of roboticness that's gonna turn people off. And we also need to be mindful of, like, you and I are not the only two people using these tools. Like Of course. People become more familiar, they're also gonna recognize, like, oh, that person just had ChatGPT put together that resume, Or like that person is just reading bullets off a computer screen from ChatGPT in this interview.

Sean Precious: And so use it where it's helpful, but I just, I really would encourage people to get some people coaching, again, from somebody in your industry. It it was... I didn't wanna do it. I didn't wanna pay the money. I didn't wanna humble myself. I I wasn't in the best of places in 2024, but I did opt into six sessions, and it was wildly, wildly helpful for me. So I say go for it if you can.

Ron Rapatalo: Thank you, Sean. Well, at that time, I'm gonna ask you my second bookended question, Sean. So what's your Ronderings? What's the lesser value you wanna share with the audience?

Sean Precious: Yeah. I think I've alluded to this a little bit, but stop thinking you have to have all the answers, and stop measuring your success based on what you can get other people to do and start really thinking about, like, what can you do to create an employee experience where the people on your team and your organization that come to your school every day love to go to work every single day.

Sean Precious: And, you know, I know both of us would love to help people, if they need support on that journey. And, just remember that there is a human at the end of every decision we make, at the end of every Google Doc we send out, at the end of every email we send, there are humans that are impacted by the choices that we make every day. And so let's lead with love when we can, and remember to really be people driven and people centered.

Ron Rapatalo: Thank you Sean for that. So before we bid each other adieu, how do people find you? What would you like to promote?

Sean Precious: Yeah, absolutely. I, again, I am the chief academic officer at Together4Schools. So I sent you, Ron, a link that sends people to a little bit of an overview about my organization. You can find me on LinkedIn, Sean Precious. That's probably the best way. That's where I do most of my... That's where I have most of my, like, professional network. Yep. And... Yeah. So I would say LinkedIn. And if you could link that organizational one pager that I sent when you sent me.

Ron Rapatalo: I definitely will.

Sean Precious: Because I have an email address inside that one pager. So feel free to reach out. If anybody has questions or wants to talk more or if there's anything that I can do to support you or your organization, I'd love to talk.

Ron Rapatalo: I have to say Sean is one of the many brilliant minds I've become privileged to know in my Teach for America world, so K-12 education folks, state, district, charter, whoever, talk to Sean. He's good at what he does. He's good at what he does.

Sean Precious: Thanks, Ron. I really appreciate that.

Ron Rapatalo: Absolutely, man. And the words of one of my favorite sports heroes, Deion Primetime Sanders, will always come hot with amazing guests like Sean Precious. Peace, y'all.

Sean Precious: Thanks, Ron.

Ron Rapatalo: If you work in K-12 leadership, talent, HR, really any organization where humans have to work with other humans, I hope you were taking notes. Sean gave us a lot to think about. Leadership is about having all the answers. People leadership is the same thing as instructional leadership. Culture is what you put on the wall.

Ron Rapatalo: Filling vacancies isn't the same thing as having a talent strategy. The thing I keep coming back to is Sean's idea of leading with love, not soft leadership, not avoiding accountability, not letting people off the hook, but leading from service instead of fear, but asking what do you need from me to do your best work?

Ron Rapatalo: Remember that there's a human being at the end of every decision we make, every Google Doc we send, and every email we fire off. Then there's the career advice. Practice your interviews. Build your list of a 100 people. Talk to people even when you don't need anything from them. Don't wait until you're unemployed to start networking.

Ron Rapatalo: Sean did it himself, and the list of a 100 people, including me, led directly to his first three consulting clients. That's the kind of Ronderings conversation I love. Big ideas, real stories, stuff you can actually use. Sean, thank you for Ronderings with me. To everybody, listening, go leave with love. I'll see you on the next Ronderings.

Ron Rapatalo: Peace. Thank you for listening to today's Ronderings. I enjoyed hanging out with me and my guests, and I hope you leave with something worth chewing on. If it made you smile, think, or even roll your eyes in a good way, pass it along to someone else. I'm Ron Rapatalo, until next time, keep rondering, keep laughing, and keep becoming. Podcaststhatmatter.org.