Episode 108
· 58:11
What's up? I'm Ron Rapatalo, and this is the Ronderings podcast. Around here, I sit down with guests for real, unpolished conversations about the lessons and values that shaped them. And I'll be right there with you, sharing my own take, laughing at myself when I need to, and wondering out loud about this messy thing called life. Glad you pulled up a chair.
Ron Rapatalo:Let's get into it. This is Ronderings, where we explore the stories that shape how we lead at work, at home, and the quiet moments in between. Today, I'm sitting with Marvin Smith. Marvin's story is layered, growing up outside of Boston as a black and brown kid and predominantly white upper income community, navigating identity, belonging, and voice from an early age. The speech impediment made it hard to be heard, but sports, especially tennis, became a pathway to expression, leadership, and eventually confidence.
Ron Rapatalo:But it's not a straight line. From a third grade teacher nodded and loved for math, to a moment in eighth grade that shook his sense of belonging in the classroom for decades, to your spent working alongside immigrant and refugee students in Chicago, Marvin's journey is really about one thing. What happens when belief, either given or taken away, shapes how you see yourself. Now through his work with Funding Braverly, Marvin is pushing philanthropy to be more courageous, more honest, and more aligned with the communities it says it serves. This conversation is about voice, courage, really takes to stop shrinking yourself to fit into systems that were never built for you.
Ron Rapatalo:Let's get into it. Ronderings universe. So I know that y'all have seen a pattern that I tend to pull from guests that are in the big concentric circles of places that feel like home. Yes, I'm giving a free shout out to Edlock considering the tenth annual convening will be happening a little bit aft well, before we actually publish this episode. But at the time of this of recording, it has not yet happened.
Ron Rapatalo:And so I know that I got to meet the brilliant Marvin Smith through Edlock Circles. He graciously accepted my offer beyond Ronderings to share his wisdom and what he sees around the fundraising philanthropic landscape. So Marvin Smith is on the mic. How you doing Marvin?
Marvin L. Smith:Good to be with you, Ronder. Good to see you.
Ron Rapatalo:Yeah.
Marvin L. Smith:I love that shirt as well too.
Ron Rapatalo:That's just I mean, you know, we up one nothing at time of movie.
Marvin L. Smith:Yes. You know? Since you let the guests know where we were and, you know, in this time, I'll I'll share my Celtics just won against the the sixes biggest
Ron Rapatalo:Boo. Victory Out. Margin. Watching.
Marvin L. Smith:I was like And the franchises.
Ron Rapatalo:Rarity? I'm like
Marvin L. Smith:I missed all of it because I'm with I'm with my daughter, and we were at the park and enjoying the Sunday outside, but Yes, sir. I still felt compelled to share. But I wish the best to the Knicks too just when they're not playing the Celtics.
Ron Rapatalo:Yeah. I well, say well, I don't I don't know if I can say with any
Marvin L. Smith:I do like Taylor and Bronson.
Ron Rapatalo:I could say, I wanna wish the best of the Celtics because that's not true. I mean, I wish the best of them is people.
Marvin L. Smith:Yeah.
Ron Rapatalo:That's an organization? No, that would be a lie. Yeah. I don't wanna lie anymore. Yeah.
Ron Rapatalo:It would not be authentic.
Marvin L. Smith:Yeah.
Ron Rapatalo:Look at that.
Marvin L. Smith:I hope we meet soon. Yeah.
Ron Rapatalo:That will be big. We might have to have a gentleman's bet on Yes. What happens with that second round. Looks like things play out the way they should. That collision course will be will be something.
Ron Rapatalo:Yes. Yeah. So Marvin, without further ado, man, let me ask you, what is your story?
Marvin L. Smith:Thank you for the invitation to start there. It's great to be with you, Ron. Really appreciate having a chance to be a guest on this great podcast, which I've enjoyed personally. Listen to lots of great stories shared.
Ron Rapatalo:Thank you.
Marvin L. Smith:So for me, I think about my story, maybe not a surprise mentioned in the South Dakota. I grew up outside of Boston, raised to two New York City parents. My dad, African American. My mom, Puerto Rican and Dominican. And they moved for opportunity.
Marvin L. Smith:But I don't think they think they underestimated what it would be like to raise a black and brown kid in a predominantly white upper income community. I also had a speech impediment growing up, a hoarse voice that made projecting really hard. So public speaking, forget about it, the read alouds, no, thank you. Not really calling my name. And I really found my voice through sports.
Marvin L. Smith:So tennis tennis drew me in. Not not the sport you might think about, but my father learned at 30 and kind of got in with the company he was at and Oh, amazing. Forced my twin sister and I to to play with the youngest of five.
Ron Rapatalo:I did not know you had a twin sister. Yes. Oh, wow.
Marvin L. Smith:Yeah. My twin sister, Lauren. So we we both were big into tennis. Yeah. And basketball, football, and, you know, in that time, my actions said a lot of what I didn't have the words for at the time.
Marvin L. Smith:It was slower to speak with that just difference in my voice. And, you know, those spaces on on the court, on the fields started tapping me into early leadership opportunities that maybe I didn't feel as ready for in the classroom. You know, school was was somewhat complicated, but third grade, I think about when I'm sharing my story with you and the listeners. I had an incredible teacher, miss Sunella. She was teaching at Boston College at the time.
Marvin L. Smith:I learned so much math. I felt invincible. You know, she invited a Celtics play at the time, Xavier McDaniel, the X Men into class, and it's like, I'm learning math. I love it. And you bring in a Celtics player into class like it couldn't get any better.
Marvin L. Smith:She helped prepare us for a math contest against the sixth graders. Okay. We beat them in a competition. So much pride. And later, I was like, should that happen that way?
Marvin L. Smith:Should should should that should that be happening? But Yeah. At the time, you know, I just felt on top of the world in math. You know, I wanted the challenge and rose to it, you know, and we that love, like, for math followed me until eighth grade. So think about my my algebra teacher, mister Greco, really, you know, lit my love you know, lit a spark in me just to, you know, like math even to a greater degree.
Marvin L. Smith:Learned algebra, got to the final exam and aced it, even got the extra credit right as I open it on, you know, my friend and I would be, you know, kind of fighting with each other to be first to be called on to answer a question correctly. But there was one day my friend didn't get to his homework and he asked me if I could share it with him and I was a little reluctant. I was like, don't know. You know, don't worry about it. He said, no, just let me get your homework.
Marvin L. Smith:And I said, alright, fine. So later that day, I'm in history class and there's a knock on the door and it's Mr. Greco. And he's like, yeah, I'd like to talk with Marvin. You know, you hear that?
Marvin L. Smith:Oh, in the class. What do you do? I'm thinking like, I'm really not that case. I don't know what I did. And he asked me right off the gate, did you share your homework with your friend?
Marvin L. Smith:And I said, yeah, I did. You know what I did? And this is a friend who always did his homework and was right there with me loving algebra as well. And the tone changed at that moment for mister Greco and he said, it is against the rules here to cheat and share your homework with another student. If I ever catch you doing this again, I will see to it personally, you will never take another foot inside this this school again.
Marvin L. Smith:And it shook me to my core thinking, me? I'm I'm kind of a model student at this point. I was helping a friend out. Why why all of that kind of energy and just, you know Yeah. Just like anger, just, you know, inappropriate response, and it was crushing for me, Ron.
Marvin L. Smith:And that was a that was an experience that started to change the belonging I felt at least at least in the math classroom. The next example was I took the the eighth grade standardized test and MCAS, bombed it, just bombed it. And I lost a lot of the confidence that I had spent years building. I didn't get it back for decades. My mother at the time told me, you know what, like, this test is not made for you.
Marvin L. Smith:And it turns out many years later, learned that that test, which is administered to elementary school students and high school students as well, is no longer a requirement for high school graduation. And I'm thinking, like, as my people would say, like
Ron Rapatalo:Yeah. You
Marvin L. Smith:gotta be kidding me. What about, like, you made that change realizing you didn't need it just like some universities don't require, you know, the standardized test in high school to get, you know, gain admissions? What about the reparative work? Like, this had an impact on you having to go through this test. And so that that's been something I've had to deal with.
Marvin L. Smith:And, you know, those two experiences of feeling on fire in a subject and then being told by a system that, you know, you don't belong in it, that duality never really left me. And it's a big part of why I do what I do. When it came time to go off to college, I knew I wanna go to school. I wanted to get out of the Boston area, and I went to Chicago. Loyola University is a Jesuit school.
Marvin L. Smith:Quickly, I ended up in a work study position
Ron Rapatalo:Okay.
Marvin L. Smith:At the after school of in the after school of a charter school on the Northwest Side, Uptown, geared toward children of refugees and immigrants around the world. So community of a few 100 kids from Sub Saharan Africa, Eastern Europe, Latin America, Asia, all over. And, yes, South And West Sides Of Chicago on top of the North. So I had never been around so much diversity in my life. The narrative at the time was the kids are running amok.
Marvin L. Smith:There are no male role models present in the school for them, talking specifically about the black boys in the school building. Come on in and spend an afternoon. And I needed some some credit to meet a volunteer requirement of being a Jesuit school. I qualify for the work study position. And so before I knew it, I was spending fifteen to twenty hours a week, all all four years, of my college experience in that school.
Marvin L. Smith:And, you know, I started to sit with the kids who are drawn to me immediately and get a much different perspective on that narrative shared with me around their experience. And I saw, you know, my fellow students in the work studies program weren't showing up on schedule. The administrators weren't really doing what they needed to do to change the experience for the students in after school. The program wasn't funded very well. And I said, this has nothing to do with you know, that that is not those are a lot of challenges that need to be addressed, and we're focused on the behaviors of students.
Marvin L. Smith:And so Yes. Before I knew it, the groundwork started to be laid for career in, you know, coalition building, advocacy Mhmm. User centered design. And so I proposed, like, hey. How about a focus group?
Marvin L. Smith:We can run a focus group when they were really popular and everything. And I said, yeah, we don't have we don't have money for that, but why don't you run that? And so, you know, that led me to sit with the kids and interview them. Hey, if you were to imagine, like, the best after school in your wildest dreams, what would it look like? I listened to their answers.
Marvin L. Smith:I wrote them down, talked with their caregivers, talked with the teachers, the administrators, you know, my fellow students. And we started getting toward, you know, a real, like, crystallized view of what a new after school revamp could look like. And before I knew it, that led to some AmeriCorps members coming in, a new partnership there to add capacity. It led to a grant, you know, you know, being secured to help bring in some additional materials, supplies that we hadn't had the funds for before.
Ron Rapatalo:And the
Marvin L. Smith:students lit up. The joy was just palpable. They couldn't wait to get to after school. And I just really you know, that just is an experience that I'll never forget. I was invited to go to church with the with the beautiful kids and their families.
Marvin L. Smith:And so, you know, that was that was all four years that I was there. And again, as I said, started a career of over twenty years of policy advocacy, a lot in the education space of in philanthropy, advising on how funds are moving faster, freer from as as many restrictions and storytelling, working with those whose lives you want to have some positive impact and making sure that they're like the lead narrators in their experience.
Ron Rapatalo:Yes.
Marvin L. Smith:Talk about what the opportunities are and what some of the barriers are. And so. That work ultimately led me several months ago to start funding bravely. It's a podcast and advisory firm pushing wealth holders and nonprofit leaders to be more courageous, more community centered, and nonprofit leaders too to be, you know, right there with them and and helping to alter, like, how how resources are flowing and more effectively. So my work is to partner with those groups to help them work better together and free up more resources to the get so they get where they need to be faster.
Marvin L. Smith:And I'm based in New York now. So in a real season of transition as well. And I'm leaning into it. And I'm trying to build a world that, you know, embraces new beginnings, both for my six year old daughter and kids everywhere.
Ron Rapatalo:So many places to go and to hear this narrative, this opportunity for you in work study to reclaim that sense of belonging. Right? It makes me rewind back to that initial inflection point with mister Greco and what I interpret as honestly a lack of empathy. Right? To just put the hammer on you, and the incredible effect it had on you, and it makes me wonder if he just would have approached you differently.
Ron Rapatalo:Uh-huh. Right? Uh-huh. I think back and I can't help but think, so I had a similar circumstance, you know, that a lot of the way you reacted to you because you were a black and brown boy. I remember I, you know, as also a high achieving student like you, but look at my face as the good quote unquote Asian American kid, Philippine American kid.
Ron Rapatalo:I remember I got into like some horse playing at elementary school. Elbow the kid in the back messing around, and then he mentioned it to the AP and I was like oh my god and Ron did that. Was like no reprimand, no nothing. Oh it's probably a one time thing with you right Ron? Right and nothing happened like something like that it could have gotten my parents and my mom you know it could have been it never escalated like that.
Ron Rapatalo:And I can't help but think, thinking of these moments, right, where it's I can't help but think it's because of how adults and the system looked at us by our race.
Marvin L. Smith:Absolutely. Yeah. Yep. Yeah. There's another experience growing up in that school in elementary where I was being teased mercilessly, you know, and I I ended up, you know, having a you know, just similar to you, kind of the horse playing, went too far, was sent to the principal's office.
Marvin L. Smith:And I was, like, scared beyond belief. Like, what's gonna happen over there? You know, I never see this guy.
Ron Rapatalo:Right. Right.
Marvin L. Smith:Fortunately for me, he wasn't in he wasn't in school that day. So I didn't have to face that. Wow, lots of experiences that I had that were different than the majority population in the schools who were white. And that's where, you know, those those experiences playing sports where you're able to kinda get get away from that. Find belonging, but also feel like I didn't have to I didn't have to worry about that as much.
Ron Rapatalo:Yeah. I'm really interested in learning a little bit more about your your your your tennis. Do you still play?
Marvin L. Smith:You know, I do. I I can say I do with confidence. So I played I played last week
Ron Rapatalo:Okay.
Marvin L. Smith:In The Bronx, some beautiful courts. Okay. And it was the first time in a couple of years after recovering from a back injury. I you
Ron Rapatalo:we've we talked about your back injury. Your back's better these days.
Marvin L. Smith:It is better. You know, you can still I'm the guy who's doing all the warmups that are extended, like, are we ever gonna start? But I'm owning it, you know, because I wanna be playing for another another thirty, years.
Ron Rapatalo:Small world, small world, someone in our Edlock circles, you and he should chat. Donnell Butler plays tennis.
Marvin L. Smith:That's my guy. I didn't know that. Yeah. Yeah. Don Donnell
Ron Rapatalo:You know how I know this?
Marvin L. Smith:Who? Yeah.
Ron Rapatalo:Because he's a Ronderings guest and he told me. You know, real talk time out.
Marvin L. Smith:Yeah.
Ron Rapatalo:Let me let me kind of open the the fourth wall to the to the audience here. I think people know I come in this cold. It's not like I did any hard research on you to try to figure out what's Marvin's buy, what is interest. So I'm coming in like I I find out all the stuff so I'm able to be like, oh my god, where do I go? There's so much rich stuff and so you know it makes me curious about your tennis journey and what you learned about leadership and learning and belonging that unfortunately you did not get from what you had a little bit in the academic setting, was I don't want to put it all on mister Greco because there was probably confluence of other things that happened after that for sure, but
Marvin L. Smith:it
Ron Rapatalo:seems to be shut down in that moment.
Marvin L. Smith:I love that question. So, yeah, there's a lot that that I can offer there. So, you know, even just in my own family, my sister and I were kind of forced to play tennis from my dad. He found a different kind of not just acceptance, but opportunity to access for himself in the work world by playing tennis. He was athletic, a track star in in New York and picked it up quickly.
Marvin L. Smith:Word. Playing with a lot of the white guys at 30 and, you know, I've got three older brothers and they were like, absolutely not. I'm not playing tennis. And, you know, my sister and I took to it pretty quickly. And, you know, I experienced immediately kind of both the spirit of I'm gonna dominate you as a your, you know, a competitor, you know, someone you're playing against from my dad, you know, and on the other side of it, kind of like this acceptance into a society that, you know, didn't make me feel a sense of belonging, but kind of what you had to do to an extent, which is some of the lessons that my dad learned at the time growing up in Jamaica, Queens in, you know, 1942.
Marvin L. Smith:You know, he he was more his experience is about all the things that, you know, he can't do according to his teachers and guidance counselors and having to prove them wrong. So there was a bit of a an acquiescing to some of the etiquette in tennis that I don't pay as much attention to now. But that's what I learned at the time and kind of the outfits and being a little quieter and not celebrating as much. And so it wasn't until the Williams sisters, even Rafael Nadal. Yeah.
Marvin L. Smith:You know, you know, screaming on the court like that. I want to play the way that I hope. I don't want to be quiet when I'm winning a point. You know, I was the only black kid on the high school tennis team. We were in the Greater Boston League.
Marvin L. Smith:You know, we won pretty often because, frankly, tennis wasn't the the main sport in that area. So I was like, a city,
Ron Rapatalo:like, I can't imagine it was like boys who've been in basketball.
Marvin L. Smith:Yeah. And I wasn't even right in the city, but I was still close enough around, you know, playing, you know, Cambridge and actually, Cambridge, I had to play against a white guy who was a a triplet, and that was kinda my
Ron Rapatalo:What? My foe
Marvin L. Smith:each year. We, you know, we go back and forth each season when we met. But, you know, I found a leadership opportunity in tennis. Even as the only black kid, little quieter, hadn't found my voice, which, you know, changed when I got to college, and maybe that's an experience I can share about a little later into the conversation. So it was still a lot through sports.
Marvin L. Smith:And I was playing varsity at at, you know, 14, freshman year, and having the whole, you know, all the everyone coming over to watch me and I felt, you know, called to rise up to that level of responsibility and captain the team a couple of years. And so had kind of the, you know, a lot of leadership opportunity with a lot of white kids who were looking at me to give them some guidance, to rally them, to give them some lessons. And so tennis was both. You know, a space where I did not feel a sense of belonging and welcome, where I created it for myself and found it through leadership. And, you know, it became, I think, more of an outlet to just for for the feelings that I hadn't found a way to process by just the physical nature of it.
Marvin L. Smith:When I started to play the way I wanted to and, you know, kind of say, screw your rules and playing it, you know, in a more of a quiet reserve way which didn't ever felt natural to me.
Ron Rapatalo:That's right. Yeah. It's it's funny like, I'm so grateful that you mentioned your love of passion and like talent for tennis because I never got to play tennis well admittedly like when my wife and I've tried to play around I still swing a tennis racket like I'm playing softball. And for the fences I'm like, but how does that how do you get that? But I'm like like everything I'm like I always tell myself if I ever got a good coach and like practice at it, I have the legs and like I can swing.
Ron Rapatalo:Like I've always been able to swing well. Just have Yeah. But learning that is it's different. It's like learn how to play golf or any of these sports. Like you have to learn how to like move properly and like and accurately and then going on the run.
Ron Rapatalo:But what I've always admired about tennis since I was growing up, I grew up as a admittedly a McEnroe fan because I loved his competitive nature and just not letting it all out. Right? And then I think as I grew up, then I became I was a huge Agassiz fan. Right?
Marvin L. Smith:Yeah. Then Me
Ron Rapatalo:these days, I'm admittedly a huge Joker fan. Look, love Fed, I love Nadal for all the obvious reasons. I've always been a Joker fan because for me it's like taking every ounce of your skill and playing at the margins. All the stuff he's done to stay healthy, his mobility, the way he eats, all these things and just you might argue that like the thing that he's best at is being able to keep the ball in play and being able to play at the margins of finding that right opportunity to win the point, letting the other players make errors, right? Which at that level
Marvin L. Smith:That'll help you win a lot of matches that way. Winning one more point can
Ron Rapatalo:Such a thin narrative, right? And so, yeah, that like I'm so glad you found that outlet at a young age right because I think I've had a lot of Ronderings guess that the classroom wasn't always where they found their belonging and there's a pattern and I think I found that later in life like I loved recreational sports, and I think as I've gotten older, my power lifting and being really athletic and taking care of my body has allowed me to be a better leaner, better human. Full tilt.
Marvin L. Smith:Yeah. Yeah. I believe it, and that that inspires me getting to see you. Yeah. Doing all spending all that time on your your workouts and sharing some of the lessons you learned that, you know, to stay staying healthy is the name of the game.
Marvin L. Smith:And however we do that, it's power lifting or walking or tennis or something else, you know. It's it's, I think, really important to hold on to and do it in in a community.
Ron Rapatalo:So let's talk about your Funding Bravely podcast and consulting business. I'd love to hear the arc of the story about why that, how you got there, and then specifically like what you're doing with that, what impact you're looking to have with that work because let me give my kind of quick TLDR here. We know, I'll say it from where I sit, philanthropy's got some shit and we know that it's been built historically for like here's a little bit of a handout y'all. And not to say there haven't been folks historically and even today, right, who aren't giving because they deeply care and don't want to carry all that wealth, right? Because I think there's a good philosophical question like should you be carrying that much wealth and what you should be doing with it for considering the kind of divides that are society, everything going on, and yet that's where since I've been in this body and having turned 50 it's like, you know, for the stories you hear of your Warren Buffets, you know, you know, Mackenzie Beaso of like giving away their wealth.
Ron Rapatalo:That's, that's the minority. Most folks hold onto it. If they're giving a large sum of money percentage wise they're giving a percent and it tells me it's like watch and so that's my like curiosity of like wanting to have you particularly talk about that because found there's not a lot of folks who look like us that are standing on all 10 toes and talking about this work in this way publicly. So
Marvin L. Smith:Yeah. No. Happy to share. So, you know, my professional path has been one that has positioned me always very close to philanthropists. Both have seen the individual donor who's contributed a million dollars, gets their name on the school, you know, helps a whole net a whole network of schools raise a lot of money, ends up being governor of the state.
Marvin L. Smith:Wow. I've seen I have seen, you know, philanthropy support a lot of advocacy work quietly, but not wanting to put their names out there in any public way for it to be that work to be attributable to them for fear of risk. Risk of what? I'm not sure. Maybe, you know, not wanting to attract any attention about work that they're able to do right through their tax status of, you know, that that all nonprofit organizations are able, you know, to raise awareness about where policies enacted right now are not meeting the needs of certain communities and, you know, put that on the map and do so in community with others.
Marvin L. Smith:And you get to lobby days through that. Funders can support that work. I've seen it up close. You know, I have seen when funders have been tapped to be part of really closed door communities around how big thumbs of money are being moved, how, you know, ideas to, you know, make changes to certain policies. You know, I have seen funders sit in the room and come try to come up with an idea to a challenge that is part of, you know, one of their focus areas of their foundation and not bring a single person who's living the experience of that challenge into the room to offer some of their own ideas.
Marvin L. Smith:You know, until recently, I think you see a lot of funders approaching that work differently. But as somebody who's been working to build coalitions to affect policy change to raise money through the state government, change policy at the school school district level to raise money from the federal government, working inside philanthropy in the corporate world. What I have found, Ron, is that when there's a choice to go right or left and, you know, right is kinda, you know, maybe toward, you know, toward a direction of values. I know you and I care about a lot of people care about Yes. Doing what's best for the community is important to
Ron Rapatalo:us. Right.
Marvin L. Smith:It's whether courage showed up or not. It wasn't about even the amount of money or fancy pitch deck, or whatever strategy meeting needed to take place over months or years. It was about having the courage to put the issue on the table. And so that became an area for me of getting frustrated and seeing funders sort of move and act a certain way behind closed doors a lot more exclusive, restrictive, oppressive, and then getting out into the public and look at their website. What are the mission and values say?
Marvin L. Smith:Maybe when they're being forced, what does a statement say? And trying to reflect values that wasn't my experience working with them. Not all of them and not all the time, but more often than not. And I felt a real call to name not just, you know, you know, decisions that were made from philanthropists, one off that I didn't support. I don't know how effective that is to make a career out of, but really highlighting, you know, examples of both grant makers, institutional philanthropy, individual donors and others, and grant seekers, fundraisers who are bringing a lot of courage, you know, to the table, you know, to address some norms that don't have to be any longer that decide who gets to decide how funds are moving to support what, you know, and that really became the impetus for funding bravely, where that podcast is about spotlighting profiles and courage from grant makers, grant seekers, asking them where do we need more of that in the sector.
Marvin L. Smith:And, of course, in a time where we're in the midst of, you know, a myriad of crises, you know, that are threatening basic human rights, safety, you know, access to health care, you name it. You know, this is the time where we need more courage. And, you know, I want to create a platform to learn myself and share with others and normalize what it means to act with cards and see where that's happening. The bigger vision as well in starting with that podcast was to not just create a platform to talk about this, which I do think brings a lot of value to the sector. It's to create an advisory practice to work directly, not just an institutional philanthropy, but wealth holders generally, especially when we're in the midst of this great wealth transfer.
Marvin L. Smith:Oh, 120,000,000,000,000 in assets transferring from, you know, boomers to. Millennials and Gen Z over the next twenty five years, and I didn't forget to Gen X, that's just, you know, a figure that I that I read, you know, that money is headed toward a much more progressive, you know, progressive groups of people and, you know, relatively so. And so, you know, I wanna partner alongside those those donors, those soon to be donors and nonprofits as well on strategy and decision making to help unlock a flow of resources that are moving faster where it's needed and towards solutions that are being informed by the communities where those dollars are intended to have an impact. So that's an area where I feel a lot of a lot of passion and so the podcast will work hand in hand with that advisory practice, which, you know, I've just launched, I just formed and we'll see this month.
Ron Rapatalo:Well, know we had the chance to scrapped about this when we had lunch together in downtown in the city.
Marvin L. Smith:It was still one of the best lunches I've had Right. Probably this year on so, you know, next spot I'll take your recommendation, I'll have to do my very best if it's not me next time.
Ron Rapatalo:Spread the word to other folks, shout out to Sonya Park who took me there like three years ago and I've just been spreading the love of KU Ramen, KUU Ramen Downtown Manhattan on John Street for those of y'all who want KU
Marvin L. Smith:cannot go ramen.
Ron Rapatalo:Go check it out. It's delish. So one of the things I wanted to ask you about certainly not only being on your podcast but also in your advisory practice is what do you have you seen around the patterns of courage for all these different groups? What would you elevate and say when folks decide to be courageous, this is the pattern these are the patterns that I'm seeing about how they do that.
Marvin L. Smith:Yeah. Yeah. You know, one that I think of is they feel a sense of safety to do so. They feel an expectation to do so from peers who they respect. They wanna be in the good graces.
Marvin L. Smith:They don't wanna feel like someone's one upping them. So safety, like, I'm not going my position, my livelihood, you know, we all bring different self interests. Right? And my livelihood is not going to be threatened Yeah. Because I go against the grain Yeah.
Marvin L. Smith:On a particular issue that the people who I get the privilege to work with and for and and serve would be better for.
Ron Rapatalo:Right.
Marvin L. Smith:So it feels like you should be doing that. But if if I if I understand, like, I can do this and there's an there's another side, you know, a next page in which I'm still I am who I am. And hopefully I've learned a lot more of, you know, how I feel about myself when I move courageously, how I can motivate and influence others. And, you know, the sun will rise again tomorrow and you'll likely still be in a role that you're in. And if not, there's something better for you on the other side of it.
Marvin L. Smith:The other part of it, you know, bringing my coalition building hat. People don't like to move on their own, and I don't blame. I think it's good to work, you know, in mass and coalitions with others who share certain values. And so folks don't want to be a, you know, a lone wolf, so to speak. And so where there are coalitions, you know, who are fierce, you know, putting demands on the table, you can kind of enter in at whatever level feels right for you.
Marvin L. Smith:It might not be storming the castle, but it might be signing on to something. It might be hosting hosting space or, you know, doing something with some data been collected to share something, you know, on a really contentious issue publicly. But you've got to find where you are most in your authenticity. We're bringing edge competencies. I'm kind of giving some advice here, not just answering why folks, you know, bring courage or not.
Marvin L. Smith:No, of course. But it is a call to action because
Ron Rapatalo:Hey.
Marvin L. Smith:We don't have forever on this with with philanthropy. You know, one other thing I'd mentioned, I feel like some people say, that's not really my job. My job is to, you know, make sure this organization exists in perpetuity, that we've got the lights on and do this work tomorrow and separate that from the hard work of standing up to your highest ideals, the ideals in which you serve in your organization. And, you know, they're sorely mistaken because that's what the work is about.
Ron Rapatalo:So I'm gonna ask you something. This just came to mind because of your acumen and passion for tennis. If you were to think about your Funding Bravely Practice as if you were a tennis coach, and you can name a tennis coach from any era. How do you act as the tennis coach you want to put up as a model for the way you advise and advocate in Funding Bravely? Yeah.
Ron Rapatalo:Was gonna say tennis, I'll add tennis players to that too just in case we want to
Marvin L. Smith:get this
Ron Rapatalo:broader, right? Obviously a lot of ex tennis players become coaches. We can go through that rabbit hole because I've watched enough tennis to be dangerous enough to have a very nerdy conversation on tennis even if something was not played all that well.
Marvin L. Smith:Yeah. Well, I'm I'm going literal on the literal on the tennis coach
Ron Rapatalo:Okay.
Marvin L. Smith:Question. And how about if I let me bring in my own experience.
Ron Rapatalo:Okay.
Marvin L. Smith:With tennis coaches. Please. So I think about coach Cody, John Cody at Arlington High School where I where I went to school. Very stoic, solemn guy, right on point with the lessons when you needed to hear them and knew how to speak to me directly because he knew my strengths. He knew my areas of weakness.
Marvin L. Smith:He knew, you know, how I'd like to be talked to and coached in a sense, which was tough, but also straight to the point. And bringing me in close, what were you, what were you hoping to accomplish there going, you know, down the line for a winner when your forehand cross court is pushing this guy back and you're probably gonna win the next point. What do you what do you thinking by going down the line? Do you know? And and asking me and curious about my answer.
Marvin L. Smith:And so, you know, I I connect that to philanthropy. If I start with your mission, what are you hoping to accomplish by this strategy that you've enacted? Yeah. What does it mean for who you're assembling around the table to guide a different approach? How do you think about this?
Marvin L. Smith:Because ultimately, you want them to see for themselves the opportunity to reach the best good, the, you know, the biggest impact possible, you know, in their own minds and and feel it inside of them. And if it's just me or somebody else preaching to them, I don't know that that's gonna make as big of a, you know, a change. So that's one thing, you know? And then I think about fast forward to almost twenty years to a brother named Osiris, I had never been coached by a by a black tennis coach, before. And this brother was, a hip hop artist, a hip hop head.
Marvin L. Smith:He made music. He was a roller skater and just a beast on the tennis court. He brought so much joy on my face the way he was just banging on the ball. I could not contain my excitement. I had never hit with somebody who was hitting that hard and returning everything and bringing some of that fierceness and aggression on the tennis court.
Marvin L. Smith:And so he was, like, coaching me in a, like, you know, when I showed up with that next level passion, excitement, he was meeting me there and inviting me to go a step farther and up in my game quickly. And so there I would think about what philanthropists who bring maybe a little bravado sometimes, you know, big ambitions. Yes. I wanna be pushed harder. Let me talk.
Marvin L. Smith:Let me meet you where you're at if it if that's the way in which you, you you know, you are moved and influenced and keep it focused on, you know, the work you're trying to do. But, you know, meet them where they are as we say, because we can meet them and sometimes you need to meet them where they are in that kind of space of a little bit more high energy bravado that doesn't last forever to then bring them down a little bit.
Ron Rapatalo:I'm so appreciative you brought two real life examples of tennis coaches because in my mind when I answer asked the question, I was thinking of the celebrity tennis coaches, Patrick Mortuglue, if I'm even saying his name right, or like, you know, a Garniv Anisovich or someone else. I was gonna name
Marvin L. Smith:like all the Maybe I was thinking of him, like, do you pronounce Patrick's last name?
Ron Rapatalo:Yeah. I I did not say but like, I've watched his tennis content on IGA.
Marvin L. Smith:Yeah. Yeah.
Ron Rapatalo:I could see why he's really there's a level of like calm and patience he doesn't strike me as a shouter at all which in my head I go to like look you probably saw all the like old school 70s and 80s like tennis camps right from like TV or like stories from your dad and like those are often shouters
Marvin L. Smith:Yeah. Yeah.
Ron Rapatalo:And that only gets you so far. It's funny like you think of the stereotype of like in so many of our sectors of like you know the the shouter of the coach right or like there's just as many John Cody's out there who are stoic, tell you directly they don't need to like bring a big berbat or anything but like they know you so well like and for me those kinds of archetypes work not only as well but I think those are more sustainable. Yeah. Right? Yeah.
Ron Rapatalo:Think you get someone to like do stuff, but like you're breaking them down and like their energy and their sense of belonging, like then you need like decades of therapy to like, you know, recover from all that, you know what I'm saying? It's like it's crazy. Yeah.
Marvin L. Smith:Yeah. And no matter what you might, you know, think about the performance to be at what cost to yourself and what lessons have you internalized and where are you not as Yeah. As gracious to yourself, so, I agree with you.
Ron Rapatalo:Well, last question I wanted to make sure that we threaded a little bit on Marvin is you've moved from being, you know, full time working at places and now you have your consulting process process practice that we've talked about here. So tell me a little about what that's been like, especially in these times where it's hard on these streets. Yeah. For a lot of reasons.
Marvin L. Smith:Yeah. Yeah. You know, one, I think it's it's been tough, you know. You know, this period, you know, this next phase of entrepreneurship is one that I am choosing with excitement. It wasn't prompted at the time when I when I started by choice.
Marvin L. Smith:It was after a role elimination and so the markets changed,
Ron Rapatalo:you
Marvin L. Smith:know, there's a lot going on across sectors impacting nonprofit funding. And so, you know, it was a it was a a gut punch for sure. And and, you know, I think it's important to, you know, to take time to sit with those feelings, you know, all the the hours I put in, you know, the the belief I have and the work and to suddenly transition out, that took a toll on me. I think it takes a toll on a lot of us. You know, I I think it's also been, you know, creates a space for discovery.
Marvin L. Smith:Like, what have I been overlooking in myself because I've been so focused on bringing all of what I can to this mission in a full time role and realize it's been a lot at the expense of creating a platform for myself, not just for self serving purposes, but to make sure that I'm not erased from the work as it's happening. And and that's challenging for me and some lessons learned is Yes. Historically, my career has been about creating platforms for others to reach greater influence, to do better by the nonprofit or the corporation and through thought leadership, getting them set up meetings with, you know, folks in Congress or funders or other funders, whoever it might be. And so Yeah. I gotta make sure that I'm investing in myself and sharing all of what I've learned and contribute.
Marvin L. Smith:Nobody else is going to do that for me. And so that's been an exciting place. And, you know, for me, I'm like, I've been working nonstop in some capacity since I was 14 years old and, you know, frankly. Yeah. Happily.
Marvin L. Smith:But, you know, different kinds of job. Right. But this has been the longest time I've been out of the full time work force or, you know, the workforce to some degree when I was a lot younger. And so, you know, it's it's hey, this is this could be something this could be something new. And I'm trying to think of the name of a book that in the middle of right now, I don't read a lot through Kindle.
Marvin L. Smith:And this one is in Kindle. It's I think it's the beginning comes after the end. I think it's called by Rebecca Solnit, you know, and it talks a lot about not just envisioning new worlds, but acknowledging we are already in new worlds. And so this is where I know I know the podcast is Ronderings and there's a Ronderings kinda ruminating somewhere here for me. But yeah.
Marvin L. Smith:Let's let's see. But, yeah, I would say that if you are navigating a role elimination, you know, a lot of people are. Like, you do not have to let a limited, you know, repressive market define your value. That's for you to define. You know, as I mentioned, I didn't choose this timing for my entrepreneurship, but I am choosing what's gonna come next.
Marvin L. Smith:You know, someone once told me a lot not long ago that I bring too much of an advocacy mindset to fundraising, and they need someone who was more of, like, purely fundraising focused. And I heard that feedback. I sat with it and landed like, I can't shrink myself to fit in someone else's job description. And there's an advocacy I care about within philanthropy that you should care about too. And so in a moment where so much feels unstable and is like, you know, I'm asking folks who've who are in this position right now to resist the urge to shrink to a description that tries to, you know, restrict their their brilliance and all of their strengths in ways that we're counting on it and set your own mission, write your own job description and build with other people, you know, who can add to what you're building.
Marvin L. Smith:You can learn from one another. And as something I remind myself of and suggest others do too is, like, we are laying down the steps for people who come after us, our kids, our grandkids, and their great grandkids to stand on and find power within. And our courage is makes all the difference. And so, you know, that that's a, you know, a a Ronderings I wanna for to leave for listeners and it's it's something that I try to, you know, sit with a lot and, you know, on the harder days, but, you know, I think there's so much to accomplish in entrepreneurship. There's so much that we have to kind of collapse into something smaller in a full time role sometimes.
Marvin L. Smith:And this benefit benefits are great. And it's tough finding a different way to access those health care benefits. But also, if we can build and think about building with others to work in collectives, we can create a lot more opportunity than just chasing one off, you know, short term projects, you know, which I've done some of, but realized quickly that that's not the way that's not the way to a sustainable, you know, healthy way of existence where bills need to be paid.
Ron Rapatalo:And so
Marvin L. Smith:you've got, you know, family members to take care of.
Ron Rapatalo:That's right. Well, appreciate you sharing those Ronderings. One that I think if I were to give the TLDR both, right, one is just the mind shifted aperture around this job market, especially if you've been laid off, right? I talked to so many people who've been laid off right and it's it's a gut punch. It's never something most people expect to happen to them.
Ron Rapatalo:Even if you know something is coming down the pike it's like well this can't be me and you start to rationalize like why wouldn't BBU right. But then what it is, it's hard not to not only take it personally but then think of all the life stuff that comes with it. How do I get revenue and you know my family to me all these things like and if one sense of identity is wrapped up in that, right? I think thinking of it as an opportunity to reshape and reshift even this difficult market might in fact bring more abundance than the opposite which is I'm up Schitt's Creek and now if that you know what I'm saying I think coming out of it out of fear which is legit it's not that fear is a bad thing but I think coming in from that standpoint means you probably more limited your options especially in this market. And then the second thing you talked about thinking about like having you know the next generation other stand on the shoulders of what you and I are doing and several others is her legacy.
Ron Rapatalo:Right? I'm going through a legacy program right now, it's making me think about things that I haven't often thought about. I've been very present focused right and present like the next day maybe two to three months. I'm not thinking seven generations from now, there's something about thinking ahead and backwards planning it to today that allows you to still focus on what you value but also understand that there are things that you may need to pay a little bit more attention to to build that foundation slowly but surely. It's like you know you could keep taking that cross court shot with the forehand and it makes sense probably in most contexts but every once in a while you have to shift it up and learn that forehand down the line.
Ron Rapatalo:It may not be your default shot, your best shot, but you got to have a variety of shot making to win a point. Yeah. If people start asking
Marvin L. Smith:pull out and let them know. You gotta let them know.
Ron Rapatalo:Well, that's the thing like people start to ask the same patterns of behavior, right? Then they're just gonna kind of like play to that and they're gonna like do things. It's just like watching another the Alfred or a match was just like them what like they were like mirrors to you. They knew what they were anticipating. Was like who's just gonna make the better shot?
Ron Rapatalo:Yeah. Who's gonna make the mistake and like not anticipate at that moment in like 50 shot like rally.
Marvin L. Smith:Mhmm.
Ron Rapatalo:Right? Because oftentimes these margins are so small, these windows are so small and I'm sure you have lots of stories about this in philanthropy, right? But the windows for these things, you feel that urgency because you've had deep proximity to it, Marvin. Deep proximity.
Marvin L. Smith:Yeah. Even when I started this, Ron, this podcast Yeah. You know, I was asked by mentor who, you know, I've respected as a friend who said, I don't know that you're going to get people in philanthropy to join you on this podcast and speak publicly about. I love the idea, but I don't know that you're going to get the people you want. And I haven't gotten a yet.
Marvin L. Smith:You know, I'm just starting right as a. Miniseries coming out in the next couple of months focused on donor advised funds and helping folks better understand how those are, you know, the most the fastest growing giving vehicle and what are some of the approaches taken with, you know, with how those are the dollars they are being deployed more more more boldly.
Ron Rapatalo:Yes.
Marvin L. Smith:But, you know, it's kind of like if you if you build it, people will come and you ask people who are doing this work sometimes, maybe thanklessly or quietly or in fear Yes. And say, I see you and invite you to share that perspective. I know that's how I've wanted to be, you know, reached out to a number of times over the last twenty years, and this this kind of like an acknowledgement and recognition that this work can be challenging and sometimes you feel isolated in different ways. And so, yeah, I think this is a time to invite people who are thinking differently or thinking about the the down the line winner sometimes because they know, like, this is that moment when you talk about Mhmm. To go go for that, and I'll still live to play the next point, the
Ron Rapatalo:next minute. Yeah. Well, Marvin, I appreciate you sharing the Ronderings without having to be the tea it up. It was such a beautiful organic moment. So I'm not gonna ask you the Ronderings question, but I will ask you a spin off of a question I used to ask in interviews.
Ron Rapatalo:Right? Is there something that you wanted to share with the audience I did not get to ask you before I ask you then the promotional how do people find you question?
Marvin L. Smith:Yeah. You know, I think that's a great question. If it's how, you know, how would I advise this next generation of donors Okay. To think about the wealth opportunity that they're they're inheriting. Yeah.
Marvin L. Smith:So if you'd like me to to to pick that up and and speak to that to a minute, yeah. Yeah. I I could take that feed. I could take that feed.
Ron Rapatalo:Yeah. Yeah. Come on. I was I was I was doing I was trying to c p three you to win by yama. Come on, man.
Ron Rapatalo:I'm
Marvin L. Smith:waiting waiting. You What to if you go slow down? Yeah. Yeah. That's good.
Marvin L. Smith:I like the Rondo. Right. Yeah. No. I mean, so I think it is really getting in touch about what what you're giving motivations are, you know, what good would you hope to do in the world that matters a lot to you, getting to know people who are already in that work doing it, not just providing it, resourcing it financially, but active in that work.
Marvin L. Smith:You know, direct service organizations, individuals who, you know, whose lived experience connects with the work of these direct service organizations with other funders already active here. You know, you've got a whole wealth of philanthropic advisers, you know, a subset of whom are doing really good work to help connect, you know, values to impact powerfully. You don't have to do this all by yourself.
Ron Rapatalo:Right.
Marvin L. Smith:This is a moment though. A lot of this work, this opportunity to create a different future through through philanthropy in one way, it's reparative work. It's repaired. It's reparative. And so and it's it's redistributive.
Marvin L. Smith:Reparative philanthropy, shout out to to Jessica Dudley leading Bold Ventures. I encourage you to to check
Ron Rapatalo:out Okay.
Marvin L. Smith:Her work there, but it's redistributive. And so thinking about how the wealth that you've been fortunate enough to inherit a mass in whatever way, you know, can help address some of the harm that its creation has created. And that, like, what what an incredible opportunity. So, you know, think about building a community around you, doing it with others. You know, we talk about donor advised funds, which will, you know, pick up in a future conversation.
Marvin L. Smith:The median balance of funds, you know, the median balance for all the the DAF accounts held across the country is like $90,000. And so it's nothing to sneeze at, but that's not the Mackenzie Scott level of wealth we're talking about. So what does that suggest around how you can have this tremendous impact if working alone? Not as much. So we've gotta, you know, I I would I would encourage people to think about the the good that can be done, you know, in in collaboratives with with others and that the clock is ticking, so don't be so afraid of taking that first step.
Ron Rapatalo:Beautifully said, Marvin. Before I let you go, brother, what would you like to promote? How do people find?
Marvin L. Smith:Yeah. Yeah. I would encourage everyone to to check me out on Funding Bravely, my podcast. It's available on YouTube, Spotify and Apple. As I mentioned, I've got some exciting new episodes coming up soon.
Marvin L. Smith:And if I can support you, wealth holders out there, donors, philanthropists or or nonprofit leaders in a high impact advisory capacity. Yeah. Thinking about storytelling support, ecosystem building, philanthropic advising, fundraising. We could talk more, but you can find me through Funding Bravely on Substack or connect with me directly through LinkedIn. I'd love to to be in touch.
Marvin L. Smith:I'm really grateful for the opportunity to to be here with you,
Ron Rapatalo:Beautiful. Well, Marvin, I always end off these episodes with one of my sports heroes, Neon Deon Sanders. And I leave the audience and you with this, we always come hot with amazing guests like Marvin Smith on Ronderings. Peace, y'all.
Marvin L. Smith:Appreciate you, brother.
Ron Rapatalo:Alright. Thank you, Marvin, for being on Ronderings. And I wanna elevate one of the things you said towards the end of the episode. I can't shrink myself to fit someone else's job description. You're damn right, Marvin.
Ron Rapatalo:There's something powerful in that, especially in a world that constantly asks us to adjust, to soften, to make ourselves more acceptable. Marvin's story reminds us that courage doesn't just show up in big public moments. It shows up in the quiet decisions. Trust your voice, question the systems you're in, to move toward impact even when it feels easier to stay comfortable. And whether you're leading a team, building something new, or thinking about how you give, your time, your energy, your resources, there's an invitation here.
Ron Rapatalo:Don't do it alone. Don't wait until it's perfect, and don't let the market define your value. If this conversation resonated, share it with someone who's been wrestling with that tension and who they are and who in the world is asking them to be. This is Ronderings. Keep reflecting, keep building, and keep choosing courage.
Ron Rapatalo:Peace. Thank you for listening to today's Ronderings. I enjoyed hanging out with me and my guests, and I hope you leave with something worth chewing on. If it made you smile, think, or even roll your eyes in a good way, pass it along to someone else. I'm Ronder Rapatalo, until next time, keep promdering, keep laughing, and keep becoming.
Ron Rapatalo:Podcaststhatmatter.org.
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