Episode 104
· 57:12
What's up? I'm Ron Rapatalo, and this is the Ronderings podcast. Around here, I sit down with guests for real, unpolished conversations about the lessons and values that shaped them. And I'll be right there with you, sharing my own take, laughing at myself when I need to, and wondering out loud about this messy thing called life. Glad you pulled up a chair.
Ron Rapatalo:Let's get into it. This episode starts in a place most people wouldn't expect. Rural Georgia, nineteen seventies, one Indian family and the entire community. People didn't know what to make of Punam Saxena's family. They asked what tribe they belonged to.
Ron Rapatalo:They asked how Bindi stayed on her mother's forehead. What's more surprising, despite being an a plus student, Punam failed the gifted test, spice. That moment didn't just impact the year. It shaped the twenty five year belief. I'm not smart.
Ron Rapatalo:I'm not capable. Fast forward. She becomes a special education teacher, donated to classrooms with no training, navigating some of the most complex student needs you can imagine. That one moment changes everything. An IEP meeting, a silent parent, a simple question.
Ron Rapatalo:What do you want for your child? That question unlocked the truth most systems miss. This episode, Punam Saxena, unpacks identity, belonging, parent voice, and the future of education depends on something deeper than curriculum, depends on who we listen to and who we empower. Let's get into it. Ronderings universe.
Ron Rapatalo:So I think everyone knows that as part of my full time job that I travel a good deal to lots of k 12 education conferences. And so one of the ones that I usually travel to, South by Southwest I had the pleasure last year of meeting one of my LinkedIn connections at the Hilton Starbucks where I often camp up. So without further ado, I wanna introduce y'all to Punam Saxena. Punam, how are you this afternoon?
Punam V. Saxena:I am great. It's so good to see you after, gosh, a little over a year.
Ron Rapatalo:I know. It's it it kinda felt like yesterday that we were just shooting the breeze at that Starbucks and just getting to know each other, which is one of my favorite parts of like being at the conference is getting to meet people in real life. Because otherwise, you know, I I always tell folks getting LinkedIn connections is a means to an end so that I can build relationships with people. I could I don't care nearly as much aside from, like, what it does for the algorithm to have lots of connections, which obviously does have a benefit, to be clear. I'm not saying it doesn't, but I would rather meet people in real life or at least have conversations with them via phone or Zoom.
Ron Rapatalo:I don't like to go back and forth and comment on people's posts for the most part.
Punam V. Saxena:Well, you're very lucky that I talked with you. You know that. Right? I know. I know.
Punam V. Saxena:Because you had on a Yankees hat when when men I know. I'm a Braves fan. Like, how could you ugh. You're just so lucky that I can't
Ron Rapatalo:I know. That you didn't You didn't try to burn it or so. I mean, you know, you could have been, like, a really crazy Phillies fan or, like, crazy Red Sox fan that you would have, like we would have gotten to a fight. Would have been awful, by
Punam V. Saxena:the I would have won, though. I would have won.
Ron Rapatalo:Just so wait. Woah. Because I'm I'm a lover, not a fighter, then then that's I'm sure that's Me the
Punam V. Saxena:too. Me too. And I to all the Wisconsin people out there, I wear a Georgia Bulldog hat I have a little beanie. And this guy yesterday said to me, he goes, Oh, you're a Packers fan? I'm like, they wear cheese on their head.
Punam V. Saxena:They don't wear a G. And the guy goes, so my apologies to all your Green Bay Packers listeners. However, I'm the g stands for Georgia And
Ron Rapatalo:it's the color. I mean, you know what's funny? Probably not a very popular name to say right now in the world of athletics and politics. You know how I got to the Georgia bulldogs in the eighties? You're gonna remember the star running back of the Georgia bulldogs in '82.
Punam V. Saxena:Yes. I do.
Ron Rapatalo:Hersha Walker. I do. I was a huge Hersha Walker fan growing up as a kid watching college football. Then he played the New Jersey generals, and then I was like then I heard him start his palm like, oh, Lord, Herschel Walker. Why?
Ron Rapatalo:When
Punam V. Saxena:he started when he plays football, he's fine.
Ron Rapatalo:When when
Punam V. Saxena:he starts speaking, I think we have to reevaluate. Getting into, I guess, little of the preview, when we talk about educating our children, I mean, these are the times that we have to reevaluate what we're doing in education and how we are unfortunately pushing some of these students through that are not getting basic skills.
Ron Rapatalo:Absolutely. So without further ado, Punam, is your story?
Punam V. Saxena:Oh, my story. I actually grew up in rural Georgia, outside of Atlanta in the nineteen seventies. I was born in Auburn, Alabama. I'm sure you can tell from my my drawl that I'm a Southerner. You
Ron Rapatalo:it it it's just like my New York City accent comes up with the four words that that make me a New Yorker. Coffee, talk, walk, park.
Punam V. Saxena:Yep.
Ron Rapatalo:You feel like, what did I say? And you said it's coffee, tack, walk. How do you even say that without a New Yorker? It's like, it's confusing to me. I can't even Park.
Ron Rapatalo:Park.
Punam V. Saxena:What? Oh my god. You sound now you sound like a a Bostonian. Oh my goodness.
Ron Rapatalo:The accent's not terribly different even though Bostonian is New York City. Yeah. Accent's a different, like, yeah, there's some overlap.
Punam V. Saxena:There there's a lot of overlap.
Ron Rapatalo:There's a little bit.
Punam V. Saxena:Little bit. So my parents let me even back up even further. My parents immigrated here in the nineteen sixties. 1961, my dad came to do his master's, his PhD at Auburn. We ended up in Mississippi State for postdoc, and then we ended up in Georgia in a rural town where there's a satellite research center.
Punam V. Saxena:Off the, like an offshoot of the university. My dad was the first agricultural engineer of Indian descent hired in this country in 1970.
Ron Rapatalo:You told me that, wow, that is that's a big claim to pain for you and your family.
Punam V. Saxena:My gosh. I mean, wasn't that long ago, right?
Ron Rapatalo:No, not at all. No.
Punam V. Saxena:And this was big this was right after the Civil Rights Act. You know, we are in this whole mindset of equality, which is not really equality. We're talking about equity, and you have kids being bust all over the place, which is a whole other issue. And in Plops' Indian family, and they'd never seen an Indian family. They're like, What tribe do you belong to?
Punam V. Saxena:Let's think about our world knowledge at that time. And it was very small. And so one day I remember my dad goes, We're Cherokee. And I'm like, Little me goes, Me, me, we're Cherokee. And in Hindi, he turns around, he goes, I'll tell you later.
Punam V. Saxena:And it was an easy way to just get the person off their back from having to explain that, oh, there's a country in India and it's, you know, it's on the continent of Asia. It was just such an elaborate discussion.
Ron Rapatalo:Up at least 20% of the world's population. I mean, that's like I'm gonna let's not even let's not even get started. Like Right. The rich cultural history of India that most No. Oh my god.
Ron Rapatalo:Don't
Punam V. Saxena:my mom would you know, she would wear the bindi, and they're like, how do you get the and get how does she get the gem to stick in her forehead? And I'm like, they sew it on. You know, because you just get tired of explaining. Yeah. I feel like we've always been in that space of explaining who we are, and why we're doing what we're doing, and why we're wearing what we're wearing.
Punam V. Saxena:Think we're doing better now. But I grew up in a community where we were the only other. And I was the first person of Indian origin to graduate from my high school.
Ron Rapatalo:Wow.
Punam V. Saxena:And I was 80 Again, not I mean, it's been forty years, but it's not been that long in the span of this country.
Ron Rapatalo:Yeah. And so What was that like for you growing up as the only growing up in, like, seventies, eighties, rural
Punam V. Saxena:Very isolating. Yeah. Very you I was Indian at home because we ate Indian food. We spoke Hindi, we did our cultural activities, our traditions, whatever, our rituals. And I'd walk out the door and then I'm like, Okay, well, I'm wearing a sweater and I'm wearing my jeans.
Punam V. Saxena:So now I need to fit into this other aspect of my dual life that I'm leading. And when I went to college, I thought, Oh my gosh, I am finally going to meet some Indian people that have had my same experience. Yeah. Hoo doggy. They all wanted to be doctors.
Punam V. Saxena:And I'm like, absolutely not. I am not a doctor. So we didn't have a lot of friends from that either. So it was really lonely to try and figure out who I was. Simon, this keeps falling out.
Punam V. Saxena:So just ignore me while I do this. Simultaneously, when I was in second grade, I took the gifted test for the second time. I took it in first grade and I I didn't took it in second grade, I didn't pass. And I distinctly remember being told by my teacher that I didn't pass. And it just broke me.
Punam V. Saxena:I went from being a straight A student, A plus student to being a CD student because I felt like I wasn't smart. I wasn't worthy. I wasn't capable. I wasn't I wasn't wasn't wasn't. Now we can look at these tests and say, oh, they weren't culturally adaptive or culturally aware.
Punam V. Saxena:They're still not culturally adaptive and they're still not culturally aware, but they're better.
Ron Rapatalo:Yeah.
Punam V. Saxena:And so that took, gosh, almost twenty five years to overcome. When I started having children and raising them and watching them succeed, I thought, well And I was a stay at home mom, but I realized that I was giving advice to the teachers, the administrators, the staff that was uplifting every one of them. And we were bringing in policies that addressed some of those students that were missing services. My undergrad degree is in psychology. My master's is in special education.
Punam V. Saxena:So, I had the knowledge to be able to see those gaps in education and as a volunteer, I could advocate. And so all of a sudden I'm like, Oh, the administration's calling me for advice. The district is calling me for advice. They're wanting to know what's happening and where they can make student experience and student resources better for every student. So then I'm like, well, you know what?
Punam V. Saxena:Maybe I'm not as incompetent as I thought I was.
Ron Rapatalo:Yeah.
Punam V. Saxena:And at the ripe old age of 54, I went back and got my doctorate. And I just defended it in January.
Ron Rapatalo:Congratulations. Yes.
Punam V. Saxena:Thank you. And, you know
Ron Rapatalo:How does it feel to have a doctor in front of your name? I asked my wife this question, and she just got her doctorate in
Punam V. Saxena:the Palmaqs, Maine. I remember it was such a big deal. Yes. You know, I don't know how she felt. I felt very anticlimactic.
Punam V. Saxena:I'm like, all right, well, that's good. Check. We're done with math. Because the dissertation is such a beast. Yes.
Punam V. Saxena:And you just live it. You're waking up and you're thinking data and you're thinking visuals. And when you defend it, you're like, Okay, well, that was fun. Graduation's in May. And I think it'll be much more exciting because the kids will be there, my parents will be there, it'll be a lot more fun.
Punam V. Saxena:The story-
Ron Rapatalo:So you ended up being a doctor without being a medical doctor, Punam. I know.
Punam V. Saxena:My brother's a medical doctor. We can't have two medical doctors in the house.
Ron Rapatalo:Way too much.
Punam V. Saxena:Too much. So I joke, I told my mom, she has a PhD because my dad has a PhD and she was there for that. My brother has an MD and now I have an EDD. So she's got it all. She's got all of us.
Ron Rapatalo:Look, so I gotta ask, so, you know, what had you decide to pursue a master's in special education in your like life and career journey? What was there an inflection? What was the point you said, this is something I need to pour into?
Punam V. Saxena:When I was 22, I was looking for a job, you know, as all good Indian girls did after They they moved back with their parents. And my parents were like, well, can you know, you need to do something. You're not gonna hang around here all day. I got a and So my first job was a self contained set of students who had autism. I'm talking severe At 22, they stuck me in this classroom with no education experience.
Ron Rapatalo:That does not sound legal, but okay. Wow. Oh, Well,
Punam V. Saxena:as you know, in the education system, you can make anything work if you really try hard, right?
Ron Rapatalo:That's true. That's also true. Yes.
Punam V. Saxena:It doesn't mean that it's right. It just means that you can make it work. I ended up in this classroom and I'm looking at these students and I'm thinking, This is crazy. These kids are getting nothing. First of all, I have no training.
Ron Rapatalo:Yeah.
Punam V. Saxena:But they're getting nothing. We get through the year. I get married. Like, again, all good Indian girls do. And we moved to Florida, and I ended up in a classroom of self contained, sorry, severe emotionally disturbed students.
Ron Rapatalo:Doctor. Yes. Wow. Doctor.
Punam V. Saxena:Again, everything's lateral here. And I realized that not one single parent is coming to my door asking me what's going on.
Ron Rapatalo:Wow.
Punam V. Saxena:I had a child kick me while I was pregnant. I had one walk out the door, had to call the police on him to bring him back. I had one same kid who kicked me, ran to my classroom because he was in a foster home and ran because he felt more secure in my classroom. So all of these things are happening in a very fundamentally developmental part of my young adulthood. And I'm like, why are why are we not getting our parents to be partners here?
Ron Rapatalo:Uh-huh. There we go.
Punam V. Saxena:And so I had an IEP meeting, and you've been to IEP meetings. You know what they're like.
Ron Rapatalo:Yes. Mhmm.
Punam V. Saxena:It is a conversion of every professional, speech language, OT, PT, whatever. Right?
Ron Rapatalo:Yes.
Punam V. Saxena:They're all sitting in this room and this poor little parent sitting in the corner. And that's what was happening. And I was a classroom teacher. I was putting in the the goals, and this parent had not said a word. She took two buses and time off of her hourly pay job to show up to this meeting.
Punam V. Saxena:We're putting in goals that had only to do with our part of educating this child, which is math, reading, science, arts, whatever. And I looked at this parent and I said, I'm putting in these goals, but you haven't said anything. What would you like? And she said, Well, he's gonna graduate in seven years and I need him to have these life skills. And I looked at my team and I'm like, That's what we should be doing.
Punam V. Saxena:Why are we talking about all this other stuff? That's not what this child needs. And I'm like, we've got to have parent advocacy. We have to start talking about parents in classrooms. We have to talk about parent teacher relationships where we are partners and not feeling like we as educators are standing over someone and telling them that this is what they need.
Punam V. Saxena:These parents have rights, These parents have a voice. These parents have dreams and hopes for their children. And if we are not going to ask them, then we are not doing our job. How
Ron Rapatalo:involved were your parents and yours and your brother's education? Were your parents big advocates for you and your brother in the when y'all were in k 12?
Punam V. Saxena:You just said a southern word, by the way. You just said y'all. I love it.
Ron Rapatalo:It's the one southern word that I picked up in middle school. It throws people off. It's like, how is this New York? Because, like, because, you know, when people would say you all, I'm like, I don't like saying you all. That's weird.
Ron Rapatalo:I'm gonna just say y'all.
Punam V. Saxena:Yeah. Y'all. So it's interesting. My parents did not volunteer. They tried, but they didn't understand the education system here.
Punam V. Saxena:When you're coming from Asia, you're thinking, you know, the teacher is the end all And be there is a disconnect. They do their job at work and we do our job at home and our kids just do their thing. What happened was by the time my parents figured that out, the second Indian family had moved in to our community.
Ron Rapatalo:And
Punam V. Saxena:the same thing happened to their child.
Ron Rapatalo:Wow. He
Punam V. Saxena:didn't get into gifted. Is brilliant. And my parents said, Nope, you're gonna need to go advocate because it's too late for Punam and her brother, but you need to go advocate. Well, guess what? He not only got into gifted, he went to MIT.
Punam V. Saxena:Whew. Hello. Yeah. Wow. The power of parent engagement, right?
Ron Rapatalo:Yeah.
Punam V. Saxena:Power of understanding your rights, of working with the schools, of working with the teachers in a noncompetitive way that is respectful and conversational and more as a team member Yes. Does wonders, wonders
Ron Rapatalo:Yeah.
Punam V. Saxena:For these children.
Ron Rapatalo:It does. I mean, it's so interesting. Right? There's I mean, I know, you know, a number of, like, the national ed nonprofits that focus on parent engagement and some of the local nonprofits through Memphis Lift is one that comes to mind. My friends at the Oakland Reach, Lakeisha Young and her team, right?
Ron Rapatalo:And it's you know, when I think about this now being a parent myself, right, is I rewind back to growing up. And so like, two things, multiple truths is one, my parents were advocates only when one of us was struggling in school. Otherwise, people very similar to like, I think how your parents, you know, were dealing with this. Like, they wanna be at but, like, you know, admittedly, there were seven of us. It was like, they can only kind of be involved where they can be involved.
Ron Rapatalo:So if I was doing well, which, generally speaking, I was doing well, except for one really funny story where my seventh grade math teacher I I could do some I was doing some knucklehead stuff in school. I remember, like, I don't know. I was being a total knucklehead in seventh grade math class and, like, threw an eraser at the chalkboard. Right? Just being stupid.
Ron Rapatalo:Right? And that numb that was more of a behavioral thing than an academic So she took my 99 and crossed it off for that marking period, put it at 65. When I showed my mom that grade, you wanna hear para advocacy? My mom and all of my siblings, I mean, all rolled out to school and said, what is up with this grade? My child is not a 65 math student.
Ron Rapatalo:And she started eating on because, like, if it was a discipline issue, that thing shouldn't show up on academic grade. That's a disciplinary issue. And she it was it was funny. Like, I never really got this. It showed up in the grade.
Ron Rapatalo:And I was just like, wait. What? And she sort of, like, talked about it. Was like, well, my parent my my mom and my like, if this isn't this way, like, Ron, why did you do that? I was like, I was acting stupid.
Ron Rapatalo:You know? We're joking around. Blah blah blah. Was like, well, that's another thing. But, like, academically speaking, what's going on?
Ron Rapatalo:And she's like, well, he's clearly a 99 student, so she back on. Yeah. So it's such a ridiculous story, but, like, it's one of those things, like, I think they would be involved Yes. When they needed to be. And now as a parent myself and my like, you know, when you have a structure that then set up by a school, that's what I've realized.
Ron Rapatalo:Like, you can then have advocacy happen a little bit more. I mean, my daughters go to private Montessori school. We get monthly updates. You know, we we there's like, you know, see your kid in action. I mean, we visited both of my daughter's classrooms a lot.
Ron Rapatalo:Right? At least once a semester and like, you know, it's just Yes. This line, the communication then becomes the advocacy, from my standpoint, gets built in if the school values it and creates procedures and ways for you to, like, visit the school rather than be like, oh, it's only when there's a report card or something bad has happened. I'm like, it's not a good way to, like, engage your parents.
Punam V. Saxena:Well, other part of that, Ron, is a lot of times when parents come to the school, it is for their child, Emily. Right? There's a discipline issue. Or there's some knucklehead threw an eraser at the chalkboard and got a 65. I don't know who I could be talking about here.
Punam V. Saxena:Some random guy, but I made that up actually. Made that up. But the point is a lot of times when we only show up in those moments, then our teachers feel like they're being attacked. And so we have to have partnerships where we're communicating once a semester, twice a semester, semester, whatever there is, just to say, Hey, is there anything I can do for you? I've got a really busy schedule, but I'm running to Target.
Punam V. Saxena:Is there anything that I can pick up for you? Are there anything I can do at home because I can't come into the classroom? There are things that we can be doing to show our support barreling through the door when our child throws an eraser. Yes. You know, and the behavior is something that I all because of my degree and my background, I'm constantly going, what is causing that behavior?
Ron Rapatalo:Yeah.
Punam V. Saxena:Was it peer pressure for you? Were you acting out because something had happened at home and you had unresolved issues? So I'll give you an example. Daughters and I are not morning people. I mean, don't talk to us.
Punam V. Saxena:This is why we're having an afternoon conversation, Ron. You don't want to
Ron Rapatalo:talk That's to good. I start waking up in the afternoon myself, so.
Punam V. Saxena:Doctor. Okay, good. But when they were in high school, high school starts at 07:01 in the morning, which is a ridiculous time, by the way, by Biologically the and chemically, kids are not supposed to wake up that early at that age. Anyway, I would text the teachers, their first period teacher, and tell them, hey, I am sending you Oscar the Grouch.
Ron Rapatalo:Yeah. And
Punam V. Saxena:all that did was give them a heads up that they're tired, they're grouchy, and a, and b, c, good luck. Because I don't know who you're getting when they come through the door. But it let the teachers know that my child wasn't being belligerent or non compliant, they were just tired. And if you don't know that, then you might get an eraser thrown because they're frustrated, and they don't know how else to Yeah. And I'm I'm using that as example only because you brought that up.
Ron Rapatalo:Yeah. I know. And it this will be the recurring theme of, like, the middle school kid that throws an eraser at the chalkboard. Yes.
Punam V. Saxena:I can I can see a meme? But Yeah. You know what? We we forget that these kids are tired, and we expect a lot out of them. And and they're exposed to so much than you and I could never imagine.
Ron Rapatalo:Yeah. Let's fast forward. I know from when we sat down at that Hilton Starbucks last year that you've gone to edu to be on panels to talk about your work in parent engagement. So talk to me about how your work is accelerating, what you currently do around parent engagement as like one of your big So
Punam V. Saxena:I'm always one that jumps in, and then I try and figure out how to swim. That's how my TEDx happened. I just was like, Sure, I'll do it. I started applying and I got in, I'm like, Okay, now what do I do? So that's how I did South by Southwest.
Punam V. Saxena:I'm like, you know, what's the worst they're gonna say? I tell my kids all the time. The answer is always no if you never try. That's right. To dive in, figure it out, you know, put yourself in uncomfortable situations because it only helps you grow.
Punam V. Saxena:I've done two solos and one panel. And last year, you caught me in a really good year because my topic was about multicultural parent engagement and how there's a nuance in such a dichotomy between our multicultural parents in terms of language, behavior, expectations, You know, just food.
Ron Rapatalo:Yes.
Punam V. Saxena:I I would love, and I don't know how you feel, but I would love if there was a holiday for Diwali or Holi or, you know, I wanna celebrate my holidays too.
Ron Rapatalo:Yeah. And so we have them in New York City public schools. It happens. Right? But I think that's more because there is a significant enough South Asian population.
Ron Rapatalo:Where I live in Jersey City, I mean, you know, you go up to Journal Square or Newport. I mean, the South Asian population here in Jersey City is pretty significant.
Punam V. Saxena:We represent.
Ron Rapatalo:But should it be only when there's a significant population that the Easter holidays are celebrated then becomes the big question. Right? I I don't think it it has to be because there's significant population that you celebrate the holiday as a result. Right? It's like I I think there's something beautiful celebrating these cultural holidays, frankly.
Punam V. Saxena:There's there are reasons. I mean, if you go back into history, there are reasons that we have these holidays.
Ron Rapatalo:Yes.
Punam V. Saxena:You know, when we have Eid or we have Yom Kippur or we have, you know, Christmas or whatever we have, there's a societal reason that these holidays exist and that have turned into tradition and cultural value and cultural sustenance. Yes. Because if we don't have sustenance, we lose it. And as Yeah. I've traveled to India, I've watched more Americanization of the country because they all want to wear Levi's jeans and they want to wear the latest, hippest, greatest name brands.
Punam V. Saxena:You know, we're losing the culture. And there's something beautiful about the cultures and the traditions that we have in each of our respective ethnicities. So that's really where I've been, the space that I've been in is let's talk about how we can get every parent on board in our education system. And when I talk about multicultural, I'm not just talking about ethnicity either. Right?
Punam V. Saxena:Let's talk let's talk about socioeconomic. Let's talk about language. I mean, you talk like a New Yorker. I mean, I can bring out that was the best I can do, my friend. That's the best I can do.
Ron Rapatalo:I'm not except for the word y'all, I'm not gonna try to have a southern accent because it's embarrassing.
Punam V. Saxena:Well, but you know what? But your culture in New York is vastly different than the culture in South Southeast America. And so why are we not, you know, we got this this education system that is so broad in terms of students and experiences, but it's so narrow in what we teach because we're not teaching to our students.
Ron Rapatalo:Yeah. Yeah. The whole idea of culturally responsive teaching, which folks like, you know, Gloria Latts and Billings, there's a whole bunch of, like, you know, luminaries that have really poured into that work over the last number of decades. Right? And it makes so much, like, me, intuitive sense because if you're meeting students where they are, you're meeting the whole picture.
Ron Rapatalo:Their culture's obviously a big part of it. Right? It doesn't mean that they don't learn things outside of their culture, but we certainly know in the way that American education has been created. Right? There's certainly been a huge bias to look at American education from a more narrow lens.
Ron Rapatalo:Right? Narrow lens I. Very much predicated on the history of, like, white Americans. Just gotta say. Absolutely.
Ron Rapatalo:Right?
Punam V. Saxena:It was just like, wait.
Ron Rapatalo:There's a history of how Indian Americans have come into this country. Right? And Filipino, like, why are we not learning that? The only reason I started learning that and pushing for it was when I was in college pushing for Asian Pacific American Studies Program and Institute, which at which started in fall of nineteen ninety six. And so for me, there's something so important.
Ron Rapatalo:Like, when I started learning that and now thirty years later, it still exists. Like, it then just become a legacy of, wow. It's not only good for students identified as APA. It's actually good for all students who wanna learn about the histories of Asian Pacific Americans now and and in the past.
Punam V. Saxena:It Isn't it important for us to learn about everybody? Yeah.
Ron Rapatalo:I mean I mean,
Punam V. Saxena:should be? Should be. Should be. And and so I use this example a lot, and I I talked about it in my dissertation that the education system in America was built on Puritan ideals.
Ron Rapatalo:Yes.
Punam V. Saxena:And so as we have become a melting pot, the ideals have not changed. The premise of the foundation of our education system has not changed. So, we are literally trying to put a square peg in a round hole and that doesn't work. So, what I try to do is just remind teachers that these parents need help understanding what's happening in the education system because right now it's changing at lightning speed. We make a policy, we bring it back, but then we cut it.
Punam V. Saxena:Here, you know, we're constantly changing. We never, I joked when I was teaching, we never let anything sit for long enough because we haven't seen success fast enough. Yeah. And that's not how human development and human brain and it's not how it works.
Ron Rapatalo:Yeah.
Punam V. Saxena:We adapt, we grow, we learn, you know, we we grow into, but we never let anything sit that long in education. And I think that is a real downfall of where we are. So try and remind teachers that if you're having to figure out what's going on, imagine how your parents feel.
Ron Rapatalo:Yeah. And, certainly, like, when you watch the way that, you know, population growth and patterns have come in this country, let's for me, the Yeah. Like, obvious one has been the absolute big population growth of Latinx folks in this country. Right?
Punam V. Saxena:Yes.
Ron Rapatalo:And so you have Latinx folks populating areas of the country, particularly in the South, that have very little idea what to do with these students from a multicultural lens. Right? It's just like, oh, even teaching. Wait. We should actually teach them in Spanish and have a bilingual like but then it becomes, well, how many folks in the teaching force can actually teach in both languages?
Ron Rapatalo:Right? And so you it just you have all these things that are set up where we've seen that if a student has a primary language, not English, actually teaching them in their primary language is one of the best ways to have them also learn English at the same time and actually move their it just and for me, like, once again, very narrow. It's English or bust, which we know from a learning standpoint does not really see our multilingual students well and, like, the multilingual student population in The United States just continues to get larger and larger.
Punam V. Saxena:And such a good point that you make. And we teach language at the wrong time. Yeah. Like We do. High school is not the time to be teaching these kids.
Punam V. Saxena:They should be learning Spanish side by side. I believe every every child in this country should know at least English and Spanish, regardless And of their then if you have Hindi or you have whatever, whatever other language you speak at home, all of that does is your brain is on fire. Is just a sponge soaking up all this stuff. So it's interesting, last last year when I spoke at in Austin, I had an audience member come up to me and he said, You know, you missed a really important part of your presentation. And I said, Really?
Punam V. Saxena:Okay. He said, there's no representation in our classrooms. Our teachers are not representative of our communities. We are putting teachers that have no understanding the vernacular and the the nuances and idioms and colloquialisms of that neighborhood. And so how can they aptly teach these students
Ron Rapatalo:without causing you to be favorite stat is when you look at the population of k 12 public education teachers in America, 80% identify as white women. I mean, there you have it. Right? There's not a lot of folks who look like you and I, my black friends, my Latinx friends that, you know, teach. I mean, the numbers and the API, it's 2% of k 12 educators identify as API.
Ron Rapatalo:Good luck finding a South Asian, an Indian American, a Philippine American teacher anywhere in the country. I mean, they're they're certainly you know some. Right? To be clear.
Punam V. Saxena:I was one. Right. Whether so I'm out, and I know one other. And the problem is, right, the fact that we do not, as a society, value what education brings to our society. We want to import those brains instead of cultivate them here.
Punam V. Saxena:Because we're not cultivating them here, we're creating a society. Oh gosh, we talked about Herschel Walker. There you go. Right? Not to be political.
Punam V. Saxena:We're talking There's no reason that Herschel Walker could not be a smart person. No one believed in him as a child to be able to cultivate a love of education. Yeah. No one found that spark in him. And so he's a great running back.
Punam V. Saxena:But on the flip side, Emmitt Smith is a fantastic example. Yeah. Mhmm. Who said to his mom, I'm leaving Florida to go play for the Dallas Cowboys, but I will finish my degree.
Ron Rapatalo:Yep.
Punam V. Saxena:And when he retired, what did he do? He went back.
Ron Rapatalo:Yeah. Shaquille O'Neal is another example. He didn't Yes. Complete his degree to LSU because he jumped early to the NBA, but he went back. I think he even has he has his NBA, if I if I remember correctly.
Ron Rapatalo:I mean
Punam V. Saxena:So why not? Right?
Ron Rapatalo:Yeah. Mhmm.
Punam V. Saxena:And it and it all goes back to what we believe we can extract out of these children.
Ron Rapatalo:There you're happy.
Punam V. Saxena:Kids are so smart. Take the smart out of
Ron Rapatalo:them. Take the
Punam V. Saxena:smart out of them.
Ron Rapatalo:Yeah. I've seen that with my daughters. Like, you know, I'm gonna wax poetic about the Montessori approach. Right? Because and I've seen that the Montessori approach, it really builds curiosity and collaboration.
Ron Rapatalo:Yes. And meeting kids where they are, you know, there's so many different ways that they're learning, and life skills incorporate. All these things get incorporated, and this is like, you know, in the very early things that, like, my both of my daughters did. You know? Like, pre k is you learn how to, like, pour things, right?
Ron Rapatalo:You're doing a lot of life skill stuff, right?
Punam V. Saxena:Absolutely. You
Ron Rapatalo:know, you're learning about your letters and you're learning phonics, you're learning and it's just built from you're doing it with other students. That for me is and you're doing it mixed age. Right? And so and you're doing around students. You know?
Ron Rapatalo:I mean, we chose our school because Sure. They get to work in some level of diversity, which I think matters a ton for us living in Jersey City. It's why we picked this. Right? Absolutely.
Ron Rapatalo:It's a huge value of ours in the way my wife grew up and the way that I grew up. It's like, I wanna live around lots of different people because there's a then fast forward for the way that my wife and I grew up. Although I would say our parents didn't, like, necessarily choose that per se. Certainly, I should speak with my friend. They didn't they didn't choose to live in the neighbors they lived in per se.
Ron Rapatalo:It was like, oh, there's lots of other Filipino immigrants that live in this building in in East Flatbush. We're gonna live here. Boom. Right? And yet that neighborhood was so richly diverse.
Ron Rapatalo:Puerto Ricans, Chinese folks, Filipino folks, Caribbean black folks, African American, you name it. It was everybody. And so I grew up like that. And so I know back or it's like where I am now. I think that's why my cultural lens and my ability to adapt, like, pretty seamlessly into lots of environments makes me who I am.
Ron Rapatalo:I get along with just about everybody because I grew up that way.
Punam V. Saxena:It's a skill that we learn. It's a skill we learn.
Ron Rapatalo:Yeah.
Punam V. Saxena:If if children are not born in a certain way that they're like, Okay, well, we can only talk to X, Y, and Z, but we can't talk to them because of blah, blah, blah. It's completely environmental. I grew up in a complete binary community. It was black, white, nuts. So if we didn't learn how to talk to people, we just didn't talk to anybody.
Punam V. Saxena:And that's just part of developing and adapting to being an adult as they're growing up. You're teaching them those life skills that you're talking about. The other thing about Montessori that I will say is it's active. Much our education, most of our education, 99% of our academics is sedentary.
Ron Rapatalo:Which is horrible, yeah. Yes.
Punam V. Saxena:I mean,
Ron Rapatalo:it's painful. I'm sure. Yeah. I'm sure. And what you've seen getting your Nothing in middle of the night.
Ron Rapatalo:Research that I think about. There's no chance
Punam V. Saxena:he went out. Absolutely not.
Ron Rapatalo:Go ahead. Okay. Clearly, we will cut out that clip when this goes live. Because I was like, wait. There so we use the same Roku to control our TVs.
Ron Rapatalo:Oh. We we have Roku TVs throughout our house, like, Roku things you can slip into the TV. And so I'm like, why is this at, like, 68 volume? Like, what the hell?
Punam V. Saxena:Think that should be a blooper. Think you should totally do it's part of being a parent.
Ron Rapatalo:It is. I mean, it's funny. Like, when I've recorded Ronderings in the past, like, my kids are in the background, I don't take out the sound.
Punam V. Saxena:Why would you?
Ron Rapatalo:And they're incorporated right in. I'm like, Oh, here we go.
Punam V. Saxena:I my kid back to his apartment. I'm sitting in a hotel room. Like, I'll see
Ron Rapatalo:you for dinner. Well, Punam, I wanna shift gears for a little bit, because when you had mentioned dissertation, I had it in my head from our green room conversation to make sure I gave you the space to talk about your dissertation of, it was on South Asian female college students and how they navigate their South Asian Indian identity and their American identity. So talk to us about that dissertation and what you learned. Yeah. That's what I It
Punam V. Saxena:it I know. And you said it beautifully. I'm so impressed.
Ron Rapatalo:I I do have a good memory these days still. Thank God. It's doing Block Blast and all those years I used to do Jeopardy! And recite categories.
Punam V. Saxena:I also think it has to do with the fact that your wife just finished her dissertation, so you just have learned how to memorize all of these, you know, crazy word patterns. So my ertation was really a study on my life experience to see if this next generation has the same experiences that I did. Their Indian identity, being at home, the expectations of graduating, getting married, taking care of the husband and the in laws, that traditional Indian upbringing. And how are they bringing in that American side of them? Because the dual identity meets in college, In school, there's a hard stop.
Punam V. Saxena:When school ends, we go home, we're Indian. Hard stop when we go to school, we're American. In college, we're merging them. So I wanted to see what the challenges were, what their expectations were of themselves, and how they were creating their hybrid cultural identity is what I called it in my dissertation.
Ron Rapatalo:What
Punam V. Saxena:I found was surprising because it was a qualitative study, and these young ladies are telling me that they want and they are expected to have a profession to be financially independent, which is huge. That's a huge shift. Their parents are saying, You can marry whoever you want, but you need to be financially independent. So, these girls are doing biochemical engineering and, know, I mean, just very STEM focused careers.
Ron Rapatalo:Were you able to dive into, like, seemingly in a generation that shifted from when you were I'm guessing you were not given that cultural expectation from your parents after you grad- when you were in college, right? Am I- No.
Punam V. Saxena:I- no. I also wasn't very motivated as a student. I also was not very motivated to be a professional. I just kind of wanted to get married and have children because I didn't Now think back, I didn't feel like I had a whole lot of self worth. So I felt like, okay, this is what I And could so the shift is because I feel like I was one of the trailblazers since my parents came in the '60s.
Punam V. Saxena:This generation, the parents came in the '80s and '90s, and so they've had a dramatic shift. There's also a larger contingency of Asian Indians in America. But these girls are heavy STEM. There's no humanities degrees. They have humanity interests, but they're not pursuing them as careers.
Punam V. Saxena:The other thing that they were telling me was there were five things. And now that I'm thinking about it, I'm hoping I can remember all five of them, even though it was January. But there were five soft skills that they felt they were missing in college when they came and they had to figure out how to navigate that. So the hard skills they had, they could come in, they could study, they could do the work, they can make the grades, they can get through the coursework. They're missing the language acquisition, the merging of the language.
Punam V. Saxena:They're missing connectivity with others who have similar experiences because they're not as competitive. These girls happen to not be as competitive in wanting to step over each other. And that was huge. That was Interesting.
Ron Rapatalo:Okay.
Punam V. Saxena:They were more focused on philanthropy, giving back. I thought that was fascinating.
Ron Rapatalo:Would not have guessed that. But, okay.
Punam V. Saxena:And maybe, talking with them, maybe that kind of goes back to the financial challenges their parents had when they came, and they saw the support that their parents were getting from I mean, I was growing up, was food stamps. I'm sorry, green stamps. And you would build the book and then you would get X, Y, or Z. And they don't even have green stamps anymore. But maybe there's there's a correlation there or connection between their parents' financial instability early on and them wanting to make someone else's life easier for for the next generation.
Punam V. Saxena:I thought that was fascinating because we encourage philanthropy in middle school and high school, but you really don't I haven't seen a whole lot of that transfer into college life. And one of the participants said, This is where I get to choose what I want to give my energies to, where my passions are. I thought that was really interesting. And I'll be very honest, I can't remember the fifth thing right off the top of my head, but each one of them led me to believe that we're making progress and slowly eroding the patriarchy. So when we erode the patriarchy, and I hate to even say this out loud, how much of our culture are we losing?
Ron Rapatalo:Maybe Maybe question is, yeah. Or is that a part of the culture that's worth losing for me is, I think, the thing to, like, interrogate, right? Because there's certainly when I think about, like, my understanding of Filipino culture, right, there's a lot of it that feels matriarchal, I. E, women run things in our households. Even if, yes, the father is in some level like provider protector at some level, but my growing up, my mom ran the household.
Ron Rapatalo:It's my mom. Right? A lot of ways, even though my father was the protective provider, my mom I always felt there was a little bit more of a fifty fifty than, like like, what I might have thought of, like, Filipino immigrants coming to this country.
Punam V. Saxena:Right. I don't wanna say
Ron Rapatalo:it was exactly fifty fifty to be clear. Right? But I think I grew up seeing, like, strong women in my household being the youngest of seven. And so I think that, for me, my my Filipino experience. Right.
Ron Rapatalo:And I don't wanna say that my single example is then gonna be pervasive of, like, all Filipino American culture and parentage is that brought to me, like, a deep respect for women. And therefore, I think a lot of the it's the space I work in, but most of my close friends tend to be women as a result. Right?
Punam V. Saxena:So interesting.
Ron Rapatalo:Yeah. Yeah.
Punam V. Saxena:And I would like to think that I'm sure there are more families out there like that, right?
Ron Rapatalo:I think so.
Punam V. Saxena:Nothing is 100% anything. My home was very patriarchal. My husband's family is very matriarchal. But there are nine sisters on my mother in law's side, and there are seven brothers on my dad's side. So, know, I also think that composition of family is It is a factor.
Ron Rapatalo:Is an impact. Yeah.
Punam V. Saxena:But but all of these experiences are pretty amazing when you think of the fact that we live in a country where we can really be anything we want to be. We just have to have the right opportunities present themselves to us.
Ron Rapatalo:Amen. Yeah.
Punam V. Saxena:And if we learn early on that those opportunities are not built for us, then what's our motivation to keep going?
Ron Rapatalo:That's right. Mhmm. That's so well said, Punam. Yeah.
Punam V. Saxena:Oh, thank you. Every so often, I'm eloquent. I'm just gonna say.
Ron Rapatalo:Well, I'm gonna give you the stamp to even be more eloquent right now, which is the Ronderings question. What lesson or value do you wanna share with the audience today?
Punam V. Saxena:That we are so fortunate to live in a country where we get to impact our our next generation, and we have to take advantage of that. We are the stewards of our next generation. You are not only with your children, but with their classmates, their schools, their social life. And we have such an important responsibility to make sure that every one of our children has that equitable opportunity to succeed. And that is my Ronderings for you is equity over equality a 100% of the time.
Ron Rapatalo:Amen to that, Punam. So before I let you go, what would you like to promote? How do people find you?
Punam V. Saxena:Yeah. So you can find me at Punam V. Saxena dot com. You can find me on all social media plat well, almost all media platforms. Let's let's be real.
Punam V. Saxena:I can't there's some that I just can't figure it out. I can't do all of them.
Ron Rapatalo:I'm not Yeah. Can't what I do.
Punam V. Saxena:I'm too old to figure them all out. Like, Snapchat, I never figured that out. I don't know what. Don't even understand that. You just take a picture and it disappears.
Punam V. Saxena:Like, why? But why? Yeah. That's if it's not gonna be in perpetuity, why would I do that? This whole you know?
Ron Rapatalo:Yeah. That's not for our generation, not our language.
Punam V. Saxena:Not for our generation. You can find me on LinkedIn under Punam And V. You can always email me at PunamV.Saxena@gmail.com. Am passionate about giving all of our students an equitable opportunity. And I do coaching, consulting, workshops, whatever we can do to bring a a positive team together
Ron Rapatalo:Yes.
Punam V. Saxena:For the betterment of that child, I'm in. Raise your hand. Give me a call, here we go.
Ron Rapatalo:I love it. Well, Punam, thank you so much for your time. I'm glad that that meeting at edu last year in 2025 turned into this Ronderings podcast recording. So It's feeling very grateful. And I always like to end off each of these episodes in the words of one of my sports heroes.
Ron Rapatalo:You mentioned Emmett Smith. I'll mention another one of the Dallas Cowboys who also play for the niners and the falcons, your hometown Atlanta falcons. Yes. About to go with. Dion Sanders, we always come hot with amazing guests like Punam Saxena.
Punam V. Saxena:Oh my gosh. Thank you so much.
Ron Rapatalo:You're welcome.
Punam V. Saxena:Dion Dion.
Ron Rapatalo:Yes. Punam leaves us with a Ronderings that feels less like a thought and more like a responsibility. We are stewards of the next generation, not just our kids, not just the students in our classrooms, all of them. And stewardship requires a shift from quality to equity, from compliance to partnership, from assuming what families need to actually asking and listening. Because what Punam reminds is simple but uncomfortable.
Ron Rapatalo:The system was designed for the world that we live in today, yet we keep asking families to fit into it, square peg, round hole. The real question isn't whether parents care. It's whether creating conditions where they can show up fully. Maybe the work ahead isn't about fixing families, but reimagining systems so every family, every child is a real shot. Thank you for listening to today's Ronderings.
Ron Rapatalo:I enjoyed hanging out with me and my guests, and I hope you leave with something worth chewing on. If it made you smile, think, or even roll your eyes in a good way, pass it along to someone else. I'm Ron Rapatalo, and until next time, keep Rondering, keep laughing, and keep becoming. Podcaststhatmatter.org.
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