00:00:00 Ron Rapatalo: What's up? I'm Ron Rapatalo and this is the Ronderings Podcast. Around here, I sit down with guests for real, unpolished conversations about the lessons and values that shape them. And I'll be right there with you, sharing my own take, laughing at myself when I need to, and wondering out loud about this messy thing called life. Glad you pulled up a chair. Let's get into it.

00:00:22 Ron Rapatalo: Welcome to another episode of Ronderings, where we explore the stories and systems shaping how we lead, live, and connect. Today I'm joined by Josh Feldman, co-founder of The Rest of Our Lives, a movement reimagining work, leadership, and rest for the nonprofit and social impact sectors. Josh shares how growing up with a learning difference transformed his worldview. How what once felt like a barrier became a superpower for collaboration and inclusion. We talk about rest is infrastructure, not luxury. How break weeks and sabbaticals create more equitable human-centered organizations and how leaders can resist the false urgency baked into so much of our work.

00:01:05 Ron Rapatalo: This episode is a deep breath in a world that constantly asks for more. Get ready to rethink what it means to build a culture where rest fuels impact and people not performance are the point. Let's dive in.

00:01:20 Ron Rapatalo: Hey friends, before we get started, I want to share something that's been a big part of my own journey. Two years ago, I published my book, Leverage. That experience cracked something open for me. I saw how publishing isn't just about pages, about owning your story, sharpening your voice, and amplifying your impact. The part that meant the most, readers reached out to me to say they felt seen. That's when I knew this work mattered.

00:01:45 Ron Rapatalo: I love this so much. I co-founded Leverage Publishing Group with friends who know this world inside and out. Now we help leaders, entrepreneurs, and change makers turn their ideas into books and podcasts that actually move people. Got a story in you, and I know you do. Let's chat. Find me on LinkedIn or at leveragepublishing.com. Cuz the world doesn't just need more books, it needs your book. All right, let's get to today's episode. Peace.

00:02:12 Ron Rapatalo: Ronderings Universe. I'm back. Wait, isn't No, I'm not LeBron. I'm not back like that. Or Michael Jordan. I wish, but I'm not yet. I want to introduce my new friend Josh Feldman on the mic, who was referred to me to be on the Ronderings podcast by connector coach, mensch extraordinaire Russ, who knows everybody who's like in the social impact space.

00:02:40 Josh Feldman: Isn't that crazy? Yeah.

00:02:42 Ron Rapatalo: Russ knows everybody.

00:02:44 Josh Feldman: Yeah, he he is like he is like the highest level connector of humans. What what a beautiful way that he builds bridges across the world.

00:02:55 Ron Rapatalo: Yeah. And then when I asked him because he was a previous Ronderings guest early on and I said in a big BCC email to previous guests, who would you refer? Of course, Russ came with like it felt like 55 names. It was three in my cuz I I'm sure if I asked him for more, he could. He's like, is that enough, Ron? Like my god. Like we could play a game of like connector Jeopardy and he like It's like it's too big for the board, right?

00:03:22 Ron Rapatalo: But his generosity of connecting people knows no bounds. He's so he's one of the most kind-hearted people that I've met. And I finally had the fortune of meeting him in person for when he came to Jersey City for coaching work he was doing for one of the foundations he was supporting. So I met him up in Newport Mall a couple years ago for the first time, which was very nice. Like, oh, it's like a big bear. I was like, Oh my god, it's Russ. He's really the best. Yeah.

00:03:50 Josh Feldman: And I feel like he has a there's a contagiousness to his spirit of you know, he he makes me want to be a better connector to folks in the world.

00:04:02 Ron Rapatalo: Absolutely. We can all take that example. Well, Josh, thank you for coming on Ronderings. And so, we're going to jump right to it. What is your story?

00:04:15 Josh Feldman: Well, thanks for having me. I'll just start with one story that really informs my leadership and my life.

00:04:22 Ron Rapatalo: Okay.

00:04:23 Josh Feldman: Which is when I was in fourth grade. I have this memory being in New York City with my parents. We were visiting my grandma.

00:04:30 Ron Rapatalo: Okay.

00:04:32 Josh Feldman: And I remember looking up at the buildings and for me I could see sort of beautiful drawings and hieroglyphics and what my parents were seeing were words and advertisements and all sorts of meaning making. And I I had yet to learn to read and I had this really strong memory of what that illiteracy felt like. And there was some shame, you know, and hardship there. But that there was also incredible beauty and a way in which I knew even then I was seeing the world differently than my parents, than the adults that were surrounding me.

00:05:10 Josh Feldman: And and I think like that journey of being a learning disabled kid on a different educational journey has in turn really informed why I do leadership development, why I do work in the nonprofit sector and the way in which I have this core belief that there is not one way to get there. There are many ways to get there.

00:05:32 Ron Rapatalo: Amen.

00:05:33 Josh Feldman: And and sort of when we try to create like singular solutions to the beautiful complexity of the world, we leave a lot of people behind.

00:05:42 Ron Rapatalo: That is so beautiful. Josh, I'm curious. Right. How did your parents support you through knowing of your learning disability? And how was navigating the education and other systems with that.

00:05:55 Josh Feldman: Yeah. So, I'm a, you know, Xennial kind of born at the cusp of two generations, an early 80s kid. So, so I was so lucky to have parents that, you know, saw this challenge and then were creative about how can we help this human, you know, navigate the world. And there there were lots of great teachers along the way, too. But what that meant, which feels relevant to the moment we're in today, is I was the first kid in my junior high school with a laptop. You know, that was one of the things that they figured out was helpful for my learning is that typing was easier than handwriting, writing in a keyboard. So, I had one of those early Macs.

00:06:40 Ron Rapatalo: Wow.

00:06:41 Josh Feldman: That was, you know, it was like five books, you know, thick. It had one of these trackpads that you had to roll and roll and

00:06:50 Ron Rapatalo: Probably had forearms the size of Popeye carrying that around and having like track ball. Oh my god. Geez.

00:07:00 Josh Feldman: So, you know, just to say like I I think I think the way many people came together to support my journey really sticks with me and I think a common story around learning disabled kids is often we learn early how to collaborate because it's a necessity and I learned early friends that were great proofreaders who could help me with my writing and how might I be of service to them also so that we could you know have a virtuous cycle with each other.

00:07:35 Ron Rapatalo: This reminds me so much like because we started out this episode talking about our great friend and coach at mensch Russ. One of the things we talked about on this podcast that really resonates what you're sharing of like people don't often think about things like disabilities as superpowers. I might argue you've learned to use your learning disability as the superpower for you to collaborate to be able to see how to build inclusion.

00:08:05 Ron Rapatalo: And when I talk with Russ, what he talked about in this podcast that resonated with me is that that growing up and being awkward has become a superpower for him to be able to like direct quote. I'm not saying like he said it himself on the podcast, right? But it's it's something that has allowed him to be able to be super empathetic and ask really good questions of others because that feeling of being alone and being ostracized is something he did not want others to feel.

00:08:35 Josh Feldman: Yeah.

00:08:36 Ron Rapatalo: So, it's become something I think he's just a really good judge of character. A little something who just cuts through b******* really well.

00:08:45 Josh Feldman: Yeah, I I do feel like the lens of our own personal experience can become this superpower and for me was just like humbling like throughout my journey. It was a great reminder of of struggle and grit and resilience and also back to the cutting through like these many moments where it's easy to get really performative in life.

00:09:10 Ron Rapatalo: Mhm.

00:09:11 Josh Feldman: And instead when we lean in instead to the vulnerability of just being human with each other, how much is possible? And that's one of the things I love about Russ is he makes it easy to be in a room. No matter who you are, there's an invitation. And I feel like when we can be an invitation with each other to to be human with with what we carry as strengths and how we can support each other in those, but also in what we don't carry easily, then reciprocity and collaboration and creativity takes on a whole different, you know, form.

00:09:50 Ron Rapatalo: Yeah. So, I'm gonna do the it's not a memento question, but it's the first thing that came to mind. I'm going to work backwards here for a second. Right. And so, you run a practice called The Rest of Our Lives. Oh, boy. I have it here. The Rest of Our Lives, RNAR. And so, I'm sure like a lot of these origin stories of founding an entity like that, it comes from something. So rather than ask you what you're doing now, which I will eventually, walk me through the journey to get there, like what were the stories, the inflection points, the kind of things that got you to say, I need to do this today as today as it did today. But like you've obviously formed it a couple years ago, but walk me through that journey.

00:10:40 Josh Feldman: Yeah, so you know, in in my career, I've had the honor and privilege to either start leadership programs or or help build them.

00:10:50 Ron Rapatalo: Yeah.

00:10:52 Josh Feldman: I kept I kept having this experience and I've worked with with artists, with social justice change makers, with with nonprofit leaders, either early career or later career, but a commonality that happened a lot is what I'd call innovation theater is we'd be in this amazing room with amazing humans and somebody would be sharing incredible wisdom. Wisdom that can absolutely move mountains, but and at that same moment it was as if water was being poured on a full cup.

00:11:30 Josh Feldman: The level of exhaustion and burnout and stress was so high around the table that it was it was as if there there was no access point. So I was troubled by that for years and years of this disconnect often where really well-intentioned people look to help bolster other people's leadership, me included, but but it looks right. It looks beautiful and powerful. But if you go just below the surface to what people's real experiences are, it's just bouncing off.

00:12:05 Josh Feldman: It's it's like a stone skipping along the surface of a pond. They're maybe even an ice pond, right? It's like and so how might we actually create the preconditions where we can learn from each other, where we can grow? And in that troubling journey, I came across this foundation called the Durfee Foundation out of LA who I learned for 25 plus years has been investing resources in a different way of supporting people which is through rest and space and time. And they have longitudinal research to show how powerful it can be when we help support people regenerate, sustain, even take pause. And and I think it's a great example of of a thing that we know in almost every kindergarten classroom, you know, anywhere, which is like sometimes it's nap time and the best way to learn something is to take a break.

00:13:00 Ron Rapatalo: Amen.

00:13:02 Josh Feldman: And and so so out of that came The Rest of Our Lives, a organization looking to support change makers through a better future of work. How do we redesign this thing so it works for actual people? We're not widgets, you know, we're not part of some assembly line. And yeah, and that was four years ago. Done a lot of fun experiments, some more successful than others, but I believe more strongly in this possibility than I did even when we started because boy, sometimes we make simple things really complicated in the workplace. And though there's really well-intentioned folks who often design those systems, it comes out of a different time in history where it's time that we do it differently and do it better for the people who actually are in those workplaces.

00:13:58 Ron Rapatalo: Yeah. There's something Josh when you and I first chatted through Russ's introduction and your work that deeply resonated me right because I've worked in a subset of the social impact sector particularly in K12 ed I've noticed the same things most of the leaders I ever admired or saw just work to the bone. And when you got and I think as I got access and got older really understood what that meant, right? When you dug the layer beneath unhappiness, unproductiveness, I remember one leader in particular like I remember hearing it and this is like maybe you know in like my midcareer roughly right this person would say hey I would ask how you doing. Tired was usually the response.

00:14:45 Ron Rapatalo: I'm like so in my head I connect well if I'm tired like how are you gonna lead if you tired that's like asking and and something if I take where I I've often got lots of examples of leadership because I'm consumed with sports the athletic is through watching sports how does a tired athlete perform you can't it doesn't it doesn't work it is like when you look at the research on sleep when we look at the research on exercise and physical move it just for me it's clear like I think that goes into the things people might not consider physical exercise rest but in some like the the the restoration part of rest isn't mean that you don't move right I think it's a in my mind it's always a broader definition right rest might be a walk

00:15:35 Josh Feldman: Absolutely right and and why why can why do we have this language for professional athletes around recovery but then in our own professional work don't use that same language you know um it it troubles me a bit.

00:15:50 Ron Rapatalo: I'm curious. You must have a person because this is your work. Like what's your perspective on this? Why do we in the social impact nonprofit sector have this like I mean I have my own take. I'm curious your like this covering like what it's like talking sales and nonprofits don't like the word sales.

00:16:10 Josh Feldman: Yeah. Absolutely. I mean first we're having this conversation in a time that is immensely hard for social change leaders. So I just want to say upfront that I this is not about that that is not crucial to our moment and that that the sector contribution isn't invaluable but and I think through a long-term narrative of scarcity and fear of limited resources and performance of impact we've gotten ourselves often in nonprofits in a trap of of running on a treadmill instead of getting to where we need to go.

00:16:50 Josh Feldman: And simplified, the stories we tell matter and the stories we tell about ultimately our own self-worth and its connection to work matter. And one of my favorite thing about rest based practices, tiny and giant, is they create perspective so that we can see the world more clearly. And it's the interconnected beautiful parts of life that are meaningful. And I think sometimes that gets lost around the way of of even the language that's often used for many people when they meet each other where the very first thing that they that's talked about or asked about is what do you do?

00:17:35 Josh Feldman: I think it's so cool to talk about what we do with our time but there is an implication often to that question of what do you do professionally and being a professional is a really beautiful part of many people's identities but I think an American work culture often takes this front seat that eclipses an opportunity for the right mix of many parts of life that in turn actually make work more effective not less by right sizing it. What what's your take does that align or do you have a different take

00:18:10 Ron Rapatalo: I think it's really similar if I take you know this is using some like academic like justice like you know I think capitalism in our country certainly pervades the nonprofit space it just does right the very mechanism of governance right through board and the board disproportionate. I'm a board member of two charter schools. I've been a board member of like a nonprofit or two, right? When you have a governance structure with folks who disproportionate boards who come in corporate disproportionately, it provides a different lens of like what they push the nonprofit to do. So, you're putting a corporate lens on top of like a dogooder thing.

00:18:50 Ron Rapatalo: And I don't think some of the things match, but oftentimes they don't. And the one word that I would say that often pervades our space is that s-word. Scale. We must scale from what? Just like I mean this happens in schools, right? Like it's so bananas to me, right? And the money follows scaling. It just does, right? And so it just and that like how do you prove your results, right? You can't you have to talk about it. It has to be quantifiable. Has to be, you know, and it just I find that in that environment, right, the push to perform gets so accentuated that if you don't perform your livelihood, your team's livelihood, the impact you have in community.

00:19:40 Ron Rapatalo: And so it just puts then this extra heroic layer on leaders on staff to have to perform. So things that like I was just at a conference in Atlanta, right? Having a talent strategy and like retention like oh sabbaticals like the sabbatical what? Right. And then when I hear some of the policy, this is me being a little shady, like why does it take you you have to have been somewhere 10 years to take a sabbatical? 10. Five seems reasonable to me in my head, right? When I've heard like that sounds reasonable to me. I get it, right? Because there's a there's an economic cost. I get it. But it's also like a rejuvenation point, right? And I have to say like when I've seen leaders that I know have taken sabbaticals, they come back so refreshed for all the obvious reasons.

00:20:30 Ron Rapatalo: And everyone uses a little differently, right? But it makes It makes so much intuitive sense to me, right? But it's not just centered on the sabbatical. It's like for me and I'm sure you think it's like what does rest look like within the system and the culture of the nonprofit on top of then some of the things we ask the individual to take care of themselves which are different right this is where like if I use the two terms self-care and collective care we are demanding that leaders nonprofit leaders overindex on self-care and not put the onus on collective care, i.e. what is the organization's responsibility to care?

00:21:10 Josh Feldman: Yes. And that's that's the huge issue that I have 100%. I just can't b******* on it. It's like it doesn't come on. Come on. And and and by the way, yeah, you know, zooming out back to American society as a whole, we don't take our vacation that's on the books. And back to this self-care piece that that's when we know there's a problem when the benefit is there on paper and still we're not doing it.

00:21:40 Josh Feldman: So what is what is that about and how do we back to your point move this into what I would say is rest is actually infrastructure. Rest is an essential part of systems and when we do that when we put those things in place then you get a winning formula for whatever impact you're trying to have. But it requires a system to be self-aware about that work and even to rein people in from an inclination in many work cultures where it's like go go go. Yes, sprint. Sometimes the sprint is a beautiful and powerful move, but sprinting only works when you have recovery time and pause. And those for many mission-driven leaders, we need to help them rein it in, not the opposite.

00:22:25 Ron Rapatalo: Yeah.

00:22:26 Josh Feldman: And you know, if you're if you're a supervisor of other people listening today, like I would just encourage you do an audit not of productivity, but are are your people taking the breaks they need? And more often than not, as supervisors, we don't do that work of, hey, let's look at the next quarter. Do do you have any vacation days on the books or even an afternoon that you're going to take off? You know, when are you slowing down enough to catch your breath? Because social change is not a marathon, even though that gets thrown around. It's a relay race. And when we pass the baton, well, then we create systems of support, we get we become exponentially more impactful because less instead of one or two people holding something, many of us can hold it together.

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00:24:05 Ron Rapatalo: I want to point something. I'm curious to get your thought on this, right? This is just me without having an OD degree, but I'm reading enough of OD and experiencing it. Right? I think the take I often have on these things is as follows. If the leader is not modeling the way ultimately, I don't care what you write in your systems and your policies and procedures, people don't follow. And so I'm wondering your work, how much like what is your take on how we support the leadership team or particularly the ED the CEO on their own incentivation of modeling rest for the organization.

00:24:45 Josh Feldman: It it is absolutely the case that those with decision rights in organizations their behavior is a is a clear indicator of what a culture is going to be like. And that doesn't mean that it has to look the same in every role across organizations. But just, you know, stick with sabbatical a second. It's easy to think about sabbatical. And for those that that's a a new idea, the way I define sabbatical is a long-term respite. And what does long-term mean? It can be different lengths of time in different systems.

00:25:20 Ron Rapatalo: Yes.

00:25:21 Josh Feldman: But I would say from the research I've read, it's got to be more than a month to be a sabbatical. Could be three months, could be a year. Those are all kinds of sabbaticals. So it's easy to think about this long-term rest as for a single person. But when a CEO takes a sabbatical it not only helps that leader recovery recovery from burnout perspective self-knowledge inspiration creativity yes but it also helps build a bench of leadership around them of people taking on roles that when that leader was there they things they would have been doing. You know passing the key to the car and you get this wonderful virtuous cycle where the entire system gets stronger

00:26:05 Josh Feldman: And then in many cases the self-awareness that a leader comes back with after sabbatical helps alleviate false urgency and when I say false urgency I mean look like I think at the root sometimes of the paradigm we're talking about is a lot of false urgency. There are many people who there's real urgency in their work they deal with real emergencies but many of us do work that is important but not actually urgent. That we make the case that it has to get done today. But what that really means is it has to get done soon.

00:26:40 Josh Feldman: And sabbatical and other rest-based interventions are often a way to kind of hit reset on this default false urgency driving these systems so that you get an executive director saying hopefully before sabbatical but definitely often after, "You know what, that's really important but we can get to it next week. We can get to it next month" to start rightsizing the way the work culture works. And now I'll put a high bar I haven't seen yet, but I would love to see. I'd love to see C-suite leaders start to use language in the average day like, "Hey team, I just want to let you know I'm going to go take a nap for an hour." Something you very rarely hear, but and it turns out you're Are you a napper?

00:27:25 Ron Rapatalo: Yeah. It's just I mean, if I'm being perfectly candid, I don't tell anybody because I don't think that I mean it's not within our culture to say that because I don't remember anybody ever saying it but I I take naps. Yeah. Most if I can right even a five minute nap like I prefer a good 20. I use Headspace and this sleep music which helps me like nap really well right but for me a nap is like just if I go back to my kid being a kid she doesn't nap right now in kindergarten but it's super restorative. It just is. I come back ready to like do my second wave of work when I take a good nap to be clear.

00:28:05 Josh Feldman: So, why do and and this this false sense that that an hour every hour of the day is going to be equal in terms of our productivity and energy. It that's a myth. You know, what's real is that we have these high and low points and if we get good at it, we can ride the waves of our really good energy points of the day and then to your point, take a nap and then there's a superpower afterwards of just how different that afternoon could be. And look, like it again based on the leadership point you're making, if we could create cultures that are more transparent about our human needs, then more gets done. Psychological safety goes up for people to be honest about this stuff.

00:28:50 Josh Feldman: And I'll just name like some of my mentors when I was coming up were very traditional hustle culture leaders who would celebrate when I was the last one in the office, who would celebrate when I was putting in longer weeks. And I'd say what I find humbling about this work I do is I'm still unlearning that stuff, too. I still get this wrong and have to rework like, oh, I I've got some false urgency this week. That's on me as a leader to figure out what to do with.

00:29:20 Ron Rapatalo: Yeah. One of the things I mean, I I always feel I don't think this is true, but this is in my head having worked in the K12 education sector for so long, right? Is I remember early in my K12 education career was like my my from like late 20s to like now, right? But like the early the first 10 years of that career, I remember what I implicitly watched of folks who started to move up faster in leadership, which is not uncommon. The harder you work, I mean harder you work, I mean this is not 50-hour weeks. This is like 70, 80, 90. Those folks moved up, right? And I watched that I'm like I think even at that younger age cuz I'm I turned 50. I turned 50, you know, a couple months ago.

00:30:10 Josh Feldman: Happy birthday.

00:30:12 Ron Rapatalo: Thank you. Is and I'm not afraid to say it out loud on this podcast because I think I've said it on other episodes. I didn't want to work that hard. I just didn't. I was like, why? And yet there was also a bit of resentment on but I'm just as smart as they are. What's the difference? And I'm sure there's other things. I'm oversimplifying here, but I'm getting on this point for a second is like wait a second, you have to work your ass off to move up in leadership.

00:30:45 Ron Rapatalo: And I think when I consider my own senior leadership journey being on this local train when I got into the former role in like roughly my like mid-40s roughly maybe a little earlier than that maybe 42 43 I remember exact number it felt right because I developed the level of maturity and understanding and life experience for me in my own like professional journey to understand oh wait a second just what I heard from other senior leaders. You sort of like are figuring it out when you're there anyway and you need the support. You also need to like prioritize rest. So I think I came into it rather than like I have something to prove. I'm 26 and I got to hustle. Not to you always have something to prove, right? There's a balance there.

00:31:35 Ron Rapatalo: But like I didn't feel I was like well I'm just going to be the way I understand my strengths are as a senior leader. I'm great with people. I see patterns extremely well. I can see the future and I'm an ideator.

00:31:50 Josh Feldman: Mh.

00:31:52 Ron Rapatalo: I'm like, "Wait a second, time out." Isn't that what a lot of senior lead, not all, isn't that what a number of senior leaders do that tend to be big picture visionaries and goodwill? It's like, "Oh s***, wait a second. Huh, look at them apples." Right? It just And so, it's for me, it's one of those things of like understanding my own journey and how to get there. I'm like, "Wait a second." I think I've and I'll say this publicly, right? This is not just where I work, but like a lot of places that I've worked. I'm like, "If I'm going to take rest, I'm going to dictate my day because I and some of this is what I call my senior leadership privilege admittedly, right?

00:32:40 Ron Rapatalo: I think when you're younger career, you may not feel like I could take that nap. I can take I'm just going to go do what I need to do. And so I tried to model that for my team. I'm like, look, you got things you got to get done. I'm not going to dictate your day. I'm just I don't care like that. Like if you're happy and you have autonomy to govern the way you spend your hour. If you want to work between 11:00 p.m. and 1:00 a.m., God bless you. But if it starts to impinge on your work, I might ask you about it because I have to, right? and just make sure that you're taking care of yourself. But everyone's going to work a little differently. You want to go work out in the middle of the day, go do you. I do. You know what was blocked out my calendar, even my current job? 9 to 11.

00:33:35 Josh Feldman: Absolutely. And look, don't don't don't message Ron. I mean, don't message, but don't schedule something with Ron unless you ask him.

00:33:45 Ron Rapatalo: Yeah. And I'm not available then because you know what? I'm sweating and everyone knows it.

00:33:52 Josh Feldman: No. And listen, when you send those signals to your team, things change in the workplace. People start to feel more comfortable in that beautiful self-knowledge that early career is all about is learning systems that help us be be good, be decent on a hard week, survive really hard months and be great when when we we hopefully can flourish at different points. Getting to put those into practice and feel comfortable telling a supervisor or a leader of an organization like hey I'm at my best if I take a midday walk or if I if I if I do a digital free time and you know have this block where I do my thinking whatever those things are for each person having cultures that support those start to be more impactful and look this starts to for the skeptics of this stuff this starts to get into very measurable pieces of the puzzle of if you want recruitment to be better if you want retention to be better

00:34:55 Josh Feldman: right you want great results. These these things are not just nice to haves. And by the way, we've seen a switch where many corporate environments are now better at this stuff than nonprofits. Goldman Sachs doesn't have a retire, sorry, excuse me, doesn't have a sabbatical policy because it's a nice thing to do. They have it because they know it creates a more effective workplace.

00:35:20 Ron Rapatalo: Right.

00:35:21 Josh Feldman: And and just one other passing thing you said I want to touch on. Someone's listening who's early in their career. They don't get to they don't get to determine the culture in which they work in or have full agency over their days. These things can be in micro doses also. And what we can do in five or 10 minutes to reshape a day I think is an incredibly underutilized resource which might just be to step outside, feel the fresh air.

00:35:50 Ron Rapatalo: Yeah.

00:35:51 Josh Feldman: Might be to just take a meeting that has no need for screens as a phone meeting instead of a Zoom call.

00:35:58 Ron Rapatalo: Amen.

00:35:59 Josh Feldman: Using very small changes to make a big impact in the easy days and the days that suck make a big difference.

00:36:08 Ron Rapatalo: Yeah. It's fascinating you say that right. One of the this reminds me that in my Calendly I do not offer Zoom as an option. Why might one ask? I've been working virtually for god knows how long. I mean this is a while since 2014. Right? Which has been a blessing, right? It works for me, right? And you might, "But Ron, you're so social. How do you meet people?" s***, I'm talking to people all the time. And then I also make time for the in-person stuff, right? And so it's just if all I was doing is being behind the screen, I would go nuts. And if all I did being behind the screen and working virtually and building relationships with people, doing work was on Zoom all the time. This is the common thing. And the research says this around you're constantly looking at yourself, you're on screen, the eye strain. I was just like, this is like me walking into to a glass wall and knowing the glass wall is there. Why would I keep doing it? Senior leadership privilege. I just stopped offering Zoom.

00:37:15 Ron Rapatalo: And you know what happens, Josh? I might have even like got on my soap box and talked because I get on the soap box out of every 10 calls like three times because I find out every 10 calls I get a couple of where's the link for me to click on for Zoom? Says it in the thing. There's no link as a phone call. I you know I mean I don't want to be obnoxious and like send notifications because I could I'm like I you know I just deal with it and then I get on the soap box and I say it's about like these many moments of like you know there are times I've taken a I'm walking somewhere I'm doing dishes I'm folding laundry and I you know what I tell people I'm doing that. "That's so nice you do that oh my god." It plants a seed of like yo please take care of yourself because I am. I'm trying to just it's these things that like I think having worked in the virtual environment for some time, there's just some things I had I picked up along the way. I'm like, wait, no one because I have unless as long as I'm productive, there's a level of I don't know if it's privilege, but like I'm going to assume I get the rights to kind of do as I see fit around how I'm constructing my work and my life around my work around my life, not the other way around. That's the big lesson that I got.

00:38:40 Josh Feldman: I hear you describing the sort of container that allows for something called glimmers. Glimmers are the opposite of triggers. If triggers create a fight-or-flight response in our nervous system, glimmers are things that feel like a breath of fresh air, right?

00:39:00 Ron Rapatalo: Right.

00:39:02 Josh Feldman: It's the kind of it's the kind of thing where for some might be puppies, you know, the second they see a puppy. For others, it might just be the sunshine, right? It might be that simple. And when we have more tools in our tool bag at work, in life to say, for instance, get off the Zoom screen, and go for a walk. Or if you're somebody who wheels, go for a wheel while you're talking to someone.

00:39:30 Ron Rapatalo: Totally.

00:39:31 Josh Feldman: The day changes. And sometimes it's like six or seven minutes into this stuff where someone might go, "Hey, thanks a lot for making this a phone call. I feel so much better. I didn't even know I needed this." It happens a good deal. And I think it's for me, it's like one of my like really small one-on-one ways to chip away at like let work revolve around around your life, not the other way around. That's what I've like. Look, I understand that the nonprofit sector disproportionately attracts the do-gooders who want to spend every ounce of their being making things better for the community and the families, the kids, etc. that they're serving. And you said the relay race, there's a sustainability involved in the relay race, right? If you're not passing your baton correctly, if you're not taking, it's just all the stuff to like even pass on the baton correctly. Having watched some of those beautiful Like I love watching a 4x100 relay race. It is the most beautiful synchronous thing to like watch. And if we use the nonprofit sectors like maybe a 4x400 but like 4 by 100, right? It was like all the stuff that's happening you don't see for the baton to be passed. That takes effort. It takes rest.

00:40:55 Josh Feldman: Yes. And when you're going that fast, you better have like thought about it and like thought about every move. So it's just you you go right. Right? It's choreographed. That handoff is choreographed. Those runners have practiced how to do that handoff. What if we had the equivalent in every organization where we were more intentional about when we do handoffs? And we give an example that that we piloted. We had a a coworker who went on parental leave and we looked to figure out how to make that baton pass as good as possible so that not only would their leave be awesome, but their return would be awesome. And here's an example that highly encourage.

00:41:40 Josh Feldman: Yes, we monitored and kept up with their email inbox and when they returned from work, there was one email in their inbox and that email was a welcome back from us.

00:41:55 Ron Rapatalo: Stop playing.

00:41:57 Josh Feldman: That's a baton pass of we're excited for you to do this next part of this run, but you're not expected to do the run that the the person did while you were gone. And even that strange sort of disorientation some of us get from after a vacation of this giant stack this anxiety about this giant stack of email. It's not good. We got to do better.

00:42:20 Ron Rapatalo: Yeah, that that's a real thing. The giant stack of emails in the inbox and as I've gotten older, my own relationship with email, as I think about all the emails I've snoozed in my personal inbox, I'm generally much better at my my professional inbox to be clear, but my personal inbox, which is then this meld of like personal professional stuff. People I said I have to make connections for boards I'm on. I'm just like, "Oh god, I got to It's not important." Because here's what I've learned about me. You don't give me a deadline. I make one up. Which might mean I don't get it done from you know what I'm saying? Like I just know how we're all constructed, right? I need some like guard rails about when these things are going to be done.

00:43:05 Ron Rapatalo: So just something I wanted to ask you, right? Because when you said your work is on rest on the future of work, I'm I'm curious. This is a like a kind of big systems question, right? With everything going on in the nonprofit sector, how would you currently advise, let's say we're in the room of like, I don't know, there's not some big national nonprofit association. I know there's more like like state-by-state chapters from what I've seen of this space, right? Grew to advise. This is from everything I've been seeing in my own work how I would say leaders in non-profit organizations should be redesigning the future of work with rest as the centerpiece of our work.

00:43:50 Josh Feldman: So the first thing is everything is downstream of rest. Whatever issue you care about, whatever existential threat, whatever crisis is happening now or is going to happen in five years, we want the right people rested enough to solve those problems. So that's the first thing. And then you know how do we get there and how do we create system change that supports that and systems that support that. My my first encouragement is always simply start with some good experiments. Don't make any long-term commitments. One of my favorite ones is called break week where an organization synchronously shuts down for a single week.

00:44:35 Josh Feldman: And what we've learned in doing this work is one the break week not only helps organizations do better strategic planning about how they use their whole year but there is an important equity part of when instead of making vacation like we were talking about earlier everybody's responsibility individually when you make it a systems move then you get not only a break but a reset and across privilege and power and all the double burdens that are playing out in the workplace across race and gender and ability. You get everybody having a shared experience and language of a kind of rest. And that is a powerful force in designing our workplace so it doesn't end up designing us. And I'll get off my soap box, but one more piece of this is we might be at the biggest change inflection point in workplace in our lifetimes and potentially maybe ever with the rise of AI with the way technology is moving systems in such huge huge ways.

00:45:40 Josh Feldman: And in this very specific inflection point, we have an opportunity to decide what values are going to drive the way we design workplaces instead of technology designing our workplaces for us. I love the idea that AI might play a role in the better quality of life of mission-driven people so that we can get better results. But that is very different to a narrative that's starting to come up around the, you know, basically the lack of need for human beings in this work. And I think in social change there will never be a point where we don't need people at the center of creating a better world. And the way in which we can design a workplace that not only works for you as a sprint, but 15 years from now, you say, "I'm actually healthier because I get to work in this environment." The end of every year, what would it be like if we said, "Boy, not not only do I feel similar to when I started this job, but I actually feel like boy, uh, my quality of life is better. My relationships are deeper both in the workplace and with other people I care about in my life. And my big ideas have a place to incubate that will solve not just the problems of today but tomorrow."

00:46:55 Ron Rapatalo: Yeah. You know, it's funny like the way you describe that like if that was even 25% of nonprofits I will get full tilt in the moment of honesty. My trepidation of move like getting a role back in the sector is just the absolute like pressure-filled environment that people are in. I think I've been out of it for so long have advised clients. I coach EDs and CEOs and senior leaders and have seen people do job processes. I'm just like this s*** is crazy.

00:47:30 Josh Feldman: Yes.

00:47:31 Ron Rapatalo: And I it gives me a lot like there's necessary work still to be done that I know I can provide value to with the skill sets that I have and I just go do I want to make that tradeoff is the honest question cuz I'm so used to like constructing this world because working virtually right means that like I have found it to be in the environments I've worked in here's what you need to and in doing sales is pretty simple bring in this revenue how you get there I mean there's some strategy involved to be clear right but like it's both it could be disconcerting to some but it's like in it's inviting to me in other ways is here's the number you have to hit go hit it Ron Go. Does that mean that I'm on calls 40 hours a week? Of That's crazy town,

00:48:25 Josh Feldman: No. For what?

00:48:27 Ron Rapatalo: Right. Does it

00:48:28 Josh Feldman: Absolutely Oh, I'm sorry to interrupt you.

00:48:30 Ron Rapatalo: No, no, please Josh, jump in.

00:48:32 Josh Feldman: I was going to say, you know, when you look at job descriptions in the nonprofit sector, uh boy, does it become obvious we have a significant problem right away. If if your job description feels page after page of like a phone book, um something is off. You know, when it appears that 10 people should be doing a single job on paper, that's a problem. And a problem even further is, and this is a very easy tip for anyone just starting to think about how to more intentionally explicitly talk about a positive culture, how come we don't have job descriptions that talk about this exact relationship of people having good quality of life while they're there?

00:49:15 Josh Feldman: If you're an organization that has a break week as a part of your year, put that on the job description. Put that as a benefit. If you're an organization that that has an informal but really beautiful policy that people don't uh do meetings on Fridays, put that on your job description. Describe not just what the work is, but what the culture is like. And I don't believe there's a one size fits all for what culture should be like, right? But whatever that vibrancy is, wherever that beautiful set of rituals practices and lived experiences are. Make that a part of the story you tell a potential person who might want to work there. When you Ron, think about getting back in the sector. You should be inspired by what a job description says about why you would want to make that jump back in.

00:50:05 Ron Rapatalo: Quick pause in the action here. I know a lot of us leaders, entrepreneurs, folks just trying to do good work and felt that grind of pushing a boulder uphill by ourselves. What I learned is you don't actually have to do it all alone. Genius Discovery Program at Thought Leader Path like having a think tank in your corner. It's not some cookie cutter formula about your story, your plan of impact, giving you the clarity and assets to take the next big step. I've seen people go through this and walk out with their voices amplified, ideas sharpened, some even launching podcasts like this one, Ronderings. So, if you're tired of grinding in the dark, you're ready to step into your impact with right support. Check out geniusdiscovery.org because that's the one thing. It's the irony of me having done talent acquisition for so long in this space, right?

00:50:55 Ron Rapatalo: I mean, it's not my day-to-day anymore, but I work at a search and consulting firm, right? So, I see all these things and I'm like, you know, this is like when you know too much, like I think I've just known too much, right? I mean, that's not to say I would never ever ever ever, right? But it's like I know enough about how these places are constructed, right? And the way that I've become really comfortable working is like would could I fit in with my style of saying something that I'm really proud to say. I don't work crazy hours by design because I find like my productivity is higher with this balance of like oh I have two three hour sprints I stop or I get back for another hour maybe I stop my mornings I don't usually have a meeting before 11 or noon

00:51:45 Josh Feldman: It's so powerful.

00:51:47 Ron Rapatalo: Yeah.

00:51:48 Josh Feldman: It's been like that for a while.

00:51:50 Ron Rapatalo: And I've been reasonably productive I think right.

00:51:55 Josh Feldman: Absolutely yeah. And by the way when we look at say higher education, the way higher education's designed, yeah, it's so confirming of what you're saying. You don't have an 8-hour class, you have a 90-minute class, a 2-hour class, and then a whole lot of time that's unstructured till your next synchronous activity. And that's because back to us not being machines, actually that unstructured time is incredibly important to our neurological capability of retention, of creativity. There's even research on how boredom is an important part of ultimately how we either retain information or don't. That getting to the point of being bored in your day is actually good for if you're going to remember that thing that just happened.

00:52:45 Ron Rapatalo: Playing Block Blast Adventure every week now is my new thing to like just be on autopilot like letting my neurological system go as I just it's things like you know it's it's so funny because I think I think all of us that have been around the space have this tension of being productive and like the push for over over productivity. And I think what I've had to learn is I'm not going to create new work unless I'm asked to do it. And I hate to be like that, but I'm just like it's just doesn't mean I'm not trying to be innovative or I don't want to work hard. It's just like well in my day if that's what happens that's what happens and I move on to the next thing. I have another day. I don't I'm not pressed.

00:53:35 Josh Feldman: Yeah.

00:53:36 Ron Rapatalo: I think there's a level of like maturity that comes with that. But I'm just like Like my productivity is not how many days I've worked, how many hours I work. It just stopped being that a while ago.

00:53:48 Josh Feldman: Totally. I'm a a so-so gardener. And what I've learned about gardening, which is exactly relevant to the nonprofit sector, is you can do extractive farming. You can pull high levels of short-term productivity from the earth, from the ground, and one year you might have an incredible crop.

00:54:10 Ron Rapatalo: Yeah.

00:54:11 Josh Feldman: But if you want long-term powerful results in your garden. You have to create an ecosystem that's regenerative. And that's ultimately what I hear you saying is it's it's not just about the results today. It is about the very long-term possibility so that the existential crisis you and I don't even know about that's coming somewhere down for the nonprofits we care about, we need them to be ready for those, too. And so, we need to get away from short-termism. And we have to I think help each other think longer term of what what do we want you know 20 years from now where do we want to be? Where do we want to be for if we think of ourselves as ancestors and whoever is going to inherit this stuff coming next? What is it that we want them to inherit?

00:55:05 Ron Rapatalo: I love that Josh. Well, now's a appropriate time to ask you the Ronderings question. What's the lesson or value you'd like to share today?

00:55:15 Josh Feldman: Though it seems complicated, yeah, everything improves when we do the inner work. And that inner work is as simple as fitting in a little bit of joy or rest into today and tomorrow.

00:55:30 Ron Rapatalo: Josh, how are you fitting in joy and rest in your in your work and your life today?

00:55:36 Josh Feldman: You know, the gardening.

00:55:40 Ron Rapatalo: Yeah. And I love a point you made earlier. I'm going to pull from some sometimes when we say rest, we think like, oh, so naps only, right? No, rest can be an incredibly active practice. And so today for me, some of the rest that came out of my day was getting to hang out with my family.

00:56:00 Josh Feldman: Beautiful.

00:56:01 Ron Rapatalo: Coaching my kids soccer team.

00:56:03 Josh Feldman: Awesome. Ah, yeah. Nice. And and a long walk. And all those were rest practices as part of my day. And by the way, sometimes one person's rest is another person's like you know, practice they want to avoid at all costs. And that's okay, too. The goal is is not that it looks the same. The goal is like that it's right for us.

00:56:35 Ron Rapatalo: Yeah. I get thrown off, but it's my own bias when people like, I can't meditate and sit still. I'm like, you don't have to meditate by closing your eyes on a pin cushion. You could walk.

00:56:50 Josh Feldman: For my birthday this year, yeah, for my birthday this year, I did a 10 mile walk.

00:57:00 Ron Rapatalo: Beautiful.

00:57:01 Josh Feldman: And and along the way, I called people I loved in my life. And some of them I, you know, set it up in advance. And some of them it was just like blocks to to see what felt right in that moment. And for me that was one of the best meditations or mindful practices of my year.

00:57:25 Ron Rapatalo: That's so beautiful. I might have to take that idea. That's really cool cuz what better way to celebrate your birthday than to tell the people that you love that you're celebrating them on your birthday.

00:57:38 Josh Feldman: There's a Dutch tradition I I love where birthdays are not about gifts that we receive but gifts that we can give. So, so how how might our birthdays be celebrations of others in our life? I think is is a pretty awesome and by the way a beautiful gift to me.

00:58:00 Ron Rapatalo: You know, it's hella cool. Well, Josh, before we end off Ronderings, how do people find you? What would you like to promote?

00:58:08 Josh Feldman: Restofourlives.org is is my organization's website. Again, we're a future of work nonprofit and we have all sorts of resources that are up there that include a nonprofit guide to break weeks which we talked a little bit about, a lot of good resources on sabbaticals and then back to making the average day suck less a whole bunch of work on the average day so encouragement if those resources sound useful to you and you're listening today like check them out be in touch with us and and I just want to say in that very vain we're a laboratory for this stuff this isn't the conclusion. It's it's a whole big experiment with all of you. So excited to learn from what you learn.

00:58:12 Ron Rapatalo: Josh, bringing it back to Russ. I am so glad he connected us. I am learning a lot from you and also it is validating a lot of what I've had to learn without organizations and sometimes even leaders valuing those things all the time. Right? But it's a love of grace. I think everyone's on their journey. I understand not every place but it also means we can make decisions about what is right for us ultimately, right? I think I sit with that.

00:58:13 Josh Feldman: Yeah. And thank you.

00:58:14 Ron Rapatalo: Oh, and thank you. Thanks for having this conversation and for for being open to not what is, but what could be. Amen. In the words of one of my favorite heroes, particularly in sports, Deion Sanders, I always like to say we always come hot with amazing guests like Josh Feldman. Thank you, Ronderings fam. Peace.

00:58:15 Ron Rapatalo: Thank you for tuning in to this episode of Ronderings with Josh Feldman. If this conversation reminds you that rest isn't just recovery, but resistance, reflection, and redesign, then share with a leader who needs permission to pause. Josh's work with The Rest of Our Lives is a call to action for organizations everywhere to create systems where people can sustain their purpose without burning out their brilliance. As always, I hope this episode helps you lead with more balance, fill with more attention, and connect with more humanity. Until next time, keep resting, keep growing, and keep rendering. Peace.

00:58:16 Ron Rapatalo: Before we wrap, I've got to give a huge shout out to the crew that helps make Ronderings come alive every week, Podcasts That Matter. Their mission, simple but powerful. Every great idea deserves a voice. So, if you've been sitting on that spark of a show or story, don't overthink it. Just start. Head to podcastsmatter.com and let their team bring your vision to life. Till next time, keep wandering, keep growing, keep sharing your voice with the world. Peace.

00:58:17 Ron Rapatalo: Thank you for listening to today's Ronderings. I enjoyed hanging out with you and my guest. And I hope you leave with something worth chewing on. If it made you smile, think, or even roll your eyes in a good way, pass it along to someone else. I'm Ron Rapatalo, and until next time, keep pondering, keep laughing, and keep becoming.