Episode 107
· 54:47
What's up? I'm Ron Rapatalo, and this is the Ronderings podcast. Around here, I sit down with guests for real, unpolished conversations about the lessons and values that shaped them. And I'll be right there with you, sharing my own take, laughing at myself when I need to, and wondering out loud about this messy thing called life? Glad you pulled up a chair.
Ron Rapatalo:Let's get into it. What
Shayna Renee Hammond:does it take to build a life and a leadership presence that refuses to shrink in the face of systems designed to minimize you? Today's conversation is with Shayna Renee Hammond, founder of Lead for Liberation and Indigo Unbound, whose journey starts at a place most of us can imagine. At five years old, Shayna walked into a school environment where she's the only black child in a town shaped by racial hostility. On her very first bus ride, she was met with slurs, rejection, and isolation. But what's remarkable isn't just what happened, It's how she interpreted it.
Shayna Renee Hammond:Instead of internalizing that hate, Shayna grounded herself in a quiet and powerful truth. It ain't me. That mindset, pair of pivotal moments like a
Ron Rapatalo:teacher saw her brilliance before she did, set a path from self doubt to scholarship student, from teacher to principal twenty five to building a national consulting firm and a transformative coaching movement for black leaders. This is a conversation of identity, energy, leadership, and the deep inner work required to sustain outer impact. Let's get into Ronderings fam. Right now as I record, I know that my podcast producers tell me not to, like, share the day of, but I'm like, it's a little dreary outside in Jersey City. But I have to say, getting on this recording with one of the more inspirational people that I know is making me feel, quote unquote, sunnier.
Ron Rapatalo:So fam, Ronderings universe, I wanna introduce Shayna Renee Hammond is on the Ronderings mic. How you doing, Shayna? I'm great. Thanks for having me. It is great to have you on the mic.
Ron Rapatalo:You've been one of the people that I've been thinking about for some time when I think about my definition of the ideal Ronderings guest. Multi hyphenated leader, clearly. I'm not gonna say your bio. Not people, look up Shayna. She's she's she's done she's done things.
Ron Rapatalo:And someone who practices sacred syncretism, that the intersection of their personal, professional, and spiritual lives find a way to align. Even though I would argue all of us never do it perfectly, but that's besides the point. We're trying. And I see Shayna with the work you're doing Indigo Unbound, and just having known you from EdLoC Circles , you're just someone if you've never met Shayna before, you have this natural warm energy, which I hope people will feel during the course of this episode together.
Shayna Renee Hammond:Thank you. So
Ron Rapatalo:without further ado, drum roll. What's your story?
Shayna Renee Hammond:My story is one of becoming. And usually when I'm first introducing myself to someone or to a space, I have to go to my first day
Ron Rapatalo:of school.
Shayna Renee Hammond:I'm a forever educator.
Ron Rapatalo:I love it.
Shayna Renee Hammond:My first day of school was actually in Pinkney, Michigan. So many people have never exactly make that face when I say Pinkney, they've never heard of it.
Ron Rapatalo:Where's it on the?
Shayna Renee Hammond:I know. It's like, It's about two hours away from Detroit. It's a very rural town. It's known for the Ku Klux Klan. We were definitely the only Black family in Pinkney, possibly since then.
Shayna Renee Hammond:Who knows?
Ron Rapatalo:Yeah.
Shayna Renee Hammond:But just to set the stage, that was my first day. That's where my first day of school was.
Ron Rapatalo:Right.
Shayna Renee Hammond:So I begged my parents to let me walk to the bus stop by my, well, for me to walk myself to the bus stop by myself. And they finally say, Okay, you know, and I walked to the bus stop, and the doors open. I get on the bus, all the students move to the edge of their seats and no one lets me sit down. Bus driver acts as if nothing's wrong, nothing's happening. And I end up swaying up and down the aisle not knowing why the students will let me sit down.
Shayna Renee Hammond:They start screaming at me, call me nigger, call me monkey, call me all kinds of things. And I'm crying, not knowing why the other students do not like me. And so, you know, I'm five at this point, I'm to kindergarten. I don't know what race is. I don't understand what's going on.
Shayna Renee Hammond:So the next day, my father has a discussion with the bus driver, and it's decided that I have an assigned seat sitting right behind the bus driver. No one sits next to me for the entire school year. So that was my introduction to race. That was my introduction to school all at one time. And so as you can imagine, it was a defining moment.
Shayna Renee Hammond:And of course, I was hurt. I was sad. But I will say the predominant emotion I felt was curiosity. I didn't say a word. I got on that bus and just my presence alone allowed for an eruption to happen.
Shayna Renee Hammond:And so later on, I would understand, right, the importance of presence and, and all of the layers that were happening at that time. But I just remember thinking, I didn't say anything. Like, I don't understand why there's this big eruption. And instead of the predominant kind of emotion going forward, it really was, why do people act this way? What motivates people to have such hatred?
Shayna Renee Hammond:Why does this actually happen? So that never left me at five.
Ron Rapatalo:Wow. So
Shayna Renee Hammond:flash forward. So flash forward, we didn't stay in Pinkney long, as you can imagine. It was tough on each family member.
Ron Rapatalo:Right.
Shayna Renee Hammond:And so we left after about a year and a half. And we moved to what's called Okemos, Michigan, which is your typical suburb right outside of Lansing, Michigan. So now I'm going to school, you know, public school. And instead of being the only Black child, I'm maybe one of maybe six Black children in the school. So I experienced more of the implicit biases.
Shayna Renee Hammond:So, from first grade now to the beginning of fifth grade, I'm seated in the back to the side. There's a different tone used for me.
Ron Rapatalo:And
Shayna Renee Hammond:I'm tracked into all the lowest reading and math groups. And so I adopted the identity of being the sweet, you know, really quiet child in the back, mainly because I didn't want to draw any attention to me because I didn't want to hear that tone. And so I became very quiet. And I also adopted the belief that well, school just must not be for me. I just must not be that smart.
Shayna Renee Hammond:Wow. And so luckily, my father, a little bit into fifth grade, got his dream job in Washington, DC. He is, you know, Washingtonian. That's where he was born and raised.
Ron Rapatalo:So
Shayna Renee Hammond:I'm 10 years old at the time. We finally moved to Washington, DC. I'm finally around people who look like me. I'm also around many, many more family members. He's one of nine.
Shayna Renee Hammond:So I have aunts and uncles and cousins. And most importantly, I had my first Black teacher, Mr. Lawrence Veasley.
Ron Rapatalo:So, as you can
Shayna Renee Hammond:imagine, I'm the new student. You know, we're well into the school year into fall or so. I'm quiet. I don't think school's for me. I kind of go to the side.
Shayna Renee Hammond:And he has, you know, he has extremely high expectations. He has a really big personality. And one of his non negotiables was we had to journal every day, and we had to journal about current events. And so I adopted the, you know, habit of being, you know, aware socially of what's going on, of current events and of reflecting and having an opinion and really also being curious about both sides. He was really adamant about that.
Shayna Renee Hammond:And I'll never forget. He pulled me to the side one day and he said, Shayna, just so you know, you're a leader. And I went, what? Like me, I barely talk. What do you mean I'm a leader?
Shayna Renee Hammond:And he said, I see what you write in your journals, you're extremely reflective. And more importantly, I see how you treat other people. That is leadership. And my entire concept about leadership about myself completely changed. And from fifth grade forward, you worked with me after school.
Shayna Renee Hammond:You know, I moved up academically. And from that point forward, I was always at the top of my class, went on, you know, it was for scholarships to college, academic scholarships, and the rest is history. I became a high performing, you know, teacher, won all kinds of awards, became a principal at 25, all because of that year in fifth grade, finally being seen, finally being heard and affirmed. And that completely shifted everything for me. So my story is one of becoming.
Ron Rapatalo:I
Shayna Renee Hammond:embody what was beautifully done for me, which is, you know, love in its purest form being seen, and really, you know, really allowing my human self to come forward. And so that warmth that you feel for me that so many people talk about, that part of what, you know, where that comes from, also comes from my ancestors, my grandmother in particular. But, you know, that's a story I often tell to really illustrate how I got to where I am, but more importantly, how I got to who I am.
Ron Rapatalo:Yeah. You know, there's something, I I had a couple of like because a lot of my brain starts to go into, like, pop culture analogies and remembering of things from previous episodes of my own life. Right?
Shayna Renee Hammond:Mhmm.
Ron Rapatalo:And so one of them, when you were talking about being curious on the bus and not saying a word, In my head, you were saying words in your head and was like the reboot of the Wonder Years of the Black Family. If I could have had Shayna narrate. I'm curious. I'm I'm gonna play a little bit here. Yeah.
Ron Rapatalo:What would you narrate here for Shayna on that bus ride?
Shayna Renee Hammond:The
Ron Rapatalo:arc of that year. Right? What would you tell us was in your head about being curious? And I know you said some questions about like, why they were doing this, etc. But Yeah.
Ron Rapatalo:Go a little bit more with me here.
Shayna Renee Hammond:Yeah, I mean, I just was like, what is wrong with you? You know, like what, what is, and luckily, I had enough wisdom to know that it wasn't all, even though it was directed at me. It wasn't fully about just me, the person. But I really was like, Why are you acting that way? Why do you hate so much?
Shayna Renee Hammond:What is it? I don't understand. This is ridiculous. I would never have, I would never treat you like this. I wouldn't treat my worst enemy like this.
Shayna Renee Hammond:I don't understand what has you motivated, or has you treating me this way or believing that I am so disgusting or whatever it is, all these things that you're shouting. I just, I don't understand. I just really don't understand. It really wasn't like, why are they doing this? This is ridiculous.
Shayna Renee Hammond:I would never do this. And what
Ron Rapatalo:was the conversation like with your parents to make sure that like, because you stayed on the bus for an entire year. What was that conversation like in those days? Because I I can't maybe I'm wrong here, but I can't imagine that you didn't feel this at some level when you were back home, maybe let it out in some way, shape, or form. So I'm curious about that.
Shayna Renee Hammond:Of course. I don't remember. I mean, I was five, so I don't remember a lot of the conversation. I just kind of remember what I took from it. I remember coming away from those conversations, affirmed that I didn't do anything wrong, that this wasn't about me.
Shayna Renee Hammond:Race was discussed. I still didn't really understand race. I knew that I was different. So that was when I really understood the difference, right? That's when that word was really used.
Shayna Renee Hammond:And, unfortunately, and that particular context, difference was definitely used in a negative way and had a negative connotation. And it was like, Oh, they don't like me because I don't look like them. It's not my fault or it's not bad that I don't look like them, even though they think it's bad that I don't look like them. And that is a very hard thing as a five year old to really understand really deeply that, you know, because they all of these people believe one thing, but I'm supposed to believe something different. That's really hard.
Ron Rapatalo:Yeah. And there's something around your, I would precociousness, something divine that I'm sure you got told by your parents and as you've got older. Right? That didn't that does not seem like a normal reaction, whatever normal is.
Shayna Renee Hammond:Yeah.
Ron Rapatalo:For a five year old to sit in the pocket like that, there seems like if I'm feeling the energy of that situation Yeah. A child who had ancestral wisdom going through your body in ways you didn't understand at five.
Shayna Renee Hammond:I did.
Ron Rapatalo:When you look back at that moment, what did you learn about your ancestral wisdom maybe years later, decades later, that you reflect back and you look at five year old Shayna, I'm like, that was a defining moment for you to be where you are today?
Shayna Renee Hammond:I was grounded, in a word, you know, and I didn't know where that came from at the time. But you just like you put it. I mean, I wasn't standing alone. I didn't realize I wasn't standing alone. But I kind of had a knowing that even on that bus, I was not alone.
Shayna Renee Hammond:They thought I was alone, but I just kind of had like, I know something is wrong with what they're saying, but I know it is not me. And I know that I just need to kind of understand where this is coming from, but this is not me. And I am not going to allow this to penetrate or internalize what's happening right now. It's hurtful, but at the same time, it ain't me.
Ron Rapatalo:Yeah.
Shayna Renee Hammond:And that I really learned about, presence. And so even though that's a really extreme way to learn about presence, what I learned later, and even now as a free Black woman, my presence alone is revolutionary. My presence alone is a gift. My presence alone is a lot. And it's, you know, and I've just learned how to own that a lotness.
Shayna Renee Hammond:Yes, I am a lot. And, you know, I was made this way on purpose. And you're going to get this presence, whether you like it or not. And I'm just going to stay rooted in who I know I am. And the fact that I know that I have a strength within me and around me that I can't even really articulate.
Shayna Renee Hammond:I definitely couldn't articulate as a five year old. And what a lot of people on that bus didn't know was that, you know, I kind of had that knowing even then, you know, even before then. And I think a lot of little black girls and little black boys, because they have had to experience so many different things so early on, learn that in different ways and are in situations that allow them to see that inner strength that they didn't know they had, they didn't know that they would need it in certain times. But yeah, I kinda, I just had an inkling I wasn't alone on that bus.
Ron Rapatalo:Yeah. Remind me the last name of your fifth grade teacher, Lawrence?
Shayna Renee Hammond:Beasley.
Ron Rapatalo:Beasley. Do you still keep in contact with him? Is he alive or where?
Shayna Renee Hammond:He is. So the beautiful thing about, you know, the time we're in with the internet. So I actually gave a talk for Marriott about, I'd say maybe for ten years ago. It was posted on YouTube. And I gave him his flowers and I told, you know, that story and someone heard it.
Shayna Renee Hammond:A friend of his said, I think a former student of yours is talking about you. And he missed him the video. He tracked me down. He was like, oh my goodness, I cannot believe you became a teacher. He had no idea I'd become a teacher, a principal, a principal developer, an entrepreneur.
Shayna Renee Hammond:He had no idea. So I found out that he was still teaching. He was teaching teachers in Fairfax County, Virginia.
Ron Rapatalo:Look at that. Holy.
Shayna Renee Hammond:With another elementary school team, classmate, and we all went out to dinner to celebrate. And I have a picture of it. I posted it on Facebook. It was the cutest thing. And of course, now he's like, you need anything.
Shayna Renee Hammond:You know, you let me know. And he continues to be a huge cheerleader.
Ron Rapatalo:What a special moment. Because if somehow you didn't get to see him, I was gonna give you the opportunity of this episode to speak to him publicly. Right? But you've done that. And you're stitched with this.
Ron Rapatalo:So that's connected. Yeah. That is beautiful. Wow. We don't often get those moments with the teachers
Shayna Renee Hammond:How that touch
Ron Rapatalo:beautiful.
Shayna Renee Hammond:It was beautiful. I'm just so grateful for whoever, you know, took the time to pause, replayed, is that what she said? And sent it to him. Yeah. Really excited that that happened.
Ron Rapatalo:Addison, there's something about fifth grade. So I've talked about this on my podcast and I wrote about in my book. One of the teachers that really touched me was my fifth grade teacher, Mr. Souma. And that being seen, respected, valued, stories that I tell about that.
Ron Rapatalo:I remember when I talked about him online, folks that I went to elementary school with, it just comes out the woodwork. Everyone has a Mr. Saluga story. I'm sure others probably gave their Mr. Viasley stories when you posted that photo.
Shayna Renee Hammond:Yep, they did. Yeah. They did. I mean, the power of a teacher is endless.
Ron Rapatalo:Let's fast forward now. Okay. Starting in education, walk us through that journey.
Shayna Renee Hammond:Oh my goodness. So it was almost accidental in a sense. So I was the kind of person who, so you know, to kind of continue the story, I, you know, go on scholarship to, James Madison University, And I'm undecided. I really don't know what I want to do. I just know that I love children.
Shayna Renee Hammond:At that point, I had worked at several camp camps. I actually ran four different sports camps as an assistant director. Loved it. I that's a whole story in of itself.
Ron Rapatalo:Yes.
Shayna Renee Hammond:So but I loved children. I knew I loved children. I knew I loved sports. I'm also an athlete, but I wasn't quite sure how that was all going to manifest into a career. So I did what some people do.
Shayna Renee Hammond:I listened to my parents and my dad was like, You should be an econ major. So I was an econ major, but that's not really what I wanted to do. Luckily, was in a liberal arts college, and so I was able to take a lot of different things. I took a little bit of everything. Soc, African American studies, yes, econ, and ended up hearing about Teach for America my, I want to say June, end of junior going into senior year, but I didn't, it didn't land.
Shayna Renee Hammond:I heard about this thing about going into, you know, under resourced areas to teach, and I wasn't an education major. So I was like, Oh, that's a path. I was closing up. I was working part time at the university at the rec center, and I had the midnight shift. I was closing up at midnight and a random classmate, we're not even that close.
Shayna Renee Hammond:I'd mentioned maybe one time to him that I might do TFA and he goes, Hey, Shayna, did you apply? The application's due today, Pacific time. You have until 3AM. Was like sounds
Ron Rapatalo:like such a darn TFA story. That's I'm like, that's probably have like 30,000 effing times.
Shayna Renee Hammond:Shayna: I was like, it's due today. He was like, it's due today. I was like, oh my god. So I lock up and I literally book it to my room and I just like hammer out my application, turn it in at like 02:53AM and got into TFA. And it's interesting, I had a backup.
Shayna Renee Hammond:I also ended up going ahead and flying for grad school for education, because I did finally like come out. I was like, I love children. Yes. I, you know, this story, of course, had such an impact on me. And so I, in 2002, did Teach for America, in Baltimore.
Shayna Renee Hammond:I Be represent. Love it. Be
Ron Rapatalo:Yeah. My wife is uh-oh, and she's right next to me on the sofa.
Shayna Renee Hammond:Does he hear me?
Ron Rapatalo:Born and raised Baltimore, Western Dove, all yeah. All the things. Yeah. She's she's a she's a daughter of Baltimore and through and through.
Shayna Renee Hammond:Awesome. So she'll understand. She'll know I was at Belmont Elementary. I always say Baltimore. I have Baltimore to thank.
Shayna Renee Hammond:They taught me how to teach and to lead. I became a school leader there.
Ron Rapatalo:That's dope.
Shayna Renee Hammond:Huge drive for Baltimore.
Ron Rapatalo:Wow. So how long did you stay in Baltimore?
Shayna Renee Hammond:So I was in Baltimore from 2002 to 2009, Okay. I want to
Ron Rapatalo:You were there for some of the Alonzo years then.
Shayna Renee Hammond:Oh yeah. So interesting. He was, was his, his first year as superintendent was my last year as a school leader. And yes, my- I have a lovely Doctor. Alonzo story.
Shayna Renee Hammond:So he was wonderful. So right after my principalship, I'd led the school to be the highest performing in the city at the time. And he called me into his office and said, and he knew I was interested in working for the district. And he opened up an org chart and he said, Shayna, where would you like to go?
Ron Rapatalo:I like- Just not- He's not the head of it, not his role, but anyway- He said,
Shayna Renee Hammond:where would you like to go? Wow. About leadership. Who needs
Ron Rapatalo:an interviewing when you just go pick a seat? It was awesome.
Shayna Renee Hammond:And, you know, I was like, Well, I'm really into school measurement. I'm really into teacher development. He said, Well, my initiative is, I don't know if you'll remember this initiative, but transformation schools. And these were, you know, public schools that had a little bit more autonomy than other traditional public schools. It was his brainchild.
Shayna Renee Hammond:And he said, Well, why don't we do this? I'll give you and another colleague. You two have 20, these 22 schools. Go. It was one of the most professionally transformative years.
Shayna Renee Hammond:It was awesome. I I Wow. I'm so appreciative of his leadership, and his openness. And yeah, it was it was a ride. I learned a lot that year.
Ron Rapatalo:Wow. Dive a little bit like I'm getting Ed nerdy here. Dive a little bit more aside from the autonomy these transformation schools had. Yeah. What else like made them unique and what impact did you particularly have on supporting and managing these schools while you're in the role?
Shayna Renee Hammond:Yes. So this is a time when the charter school law was just being passed in Maryland.
Ron Rapatalo:That's what I thought.
Shayna Renee Hammond:Right. And to get a little nerdy, right, like I think it was a very contentious area for charter schools.
Ron Rapatalo:A little bit. Little bit.
Shayna Renee Hammond:Little bit. And so here I am, the youngest, you know, principal coming out of the principalship from a charter school. And we essentially started out as a transformation school. We actually didn't start as a charter school because we just didn't have charters in Maryland. Yeah.
Shayna Renee Hammond:I was a part of that kind of transition. So I was also coming in as a peer because I was a principal at the same time as many of these principals trying to figure out this new landscape with charter schools on the scene. Yeah. And so that added, you know, a layer of complexity from age to experience to results to, but what was also different about these schools is that they, they each had a very distinct mission, vision and values. And so they were all pretty fanatical about them.
Shayna Renee Hammond:You know, I don't know if you know, Kaleela and the Baltimore Freedom School, she was a part of the 22, all of these schools really passionate about making sure that students had exactly what they needed, that differentiation was at the top, you know. And it was fun, you know, they were all very innovative and entrepreneurial as well. Wow. And that's also where kind of my entrepreneurial spirit was able to really kind of come out and dance, in ways I wasn't expecting to be able to do in the district, which was awesome.
Ron Rapatalo:Wow. There's so much of the playbook from Doctor. Alonzo and this transformation schools reminds me of the time when I was in Newark Public Schools and CAMI started the Renew Schools.
Shayna Renee Hammond:Oh, really?
Ron Rapatalo:Which were really turnaround schools, right? But they were in in the principals that were selected to run those schools were given a share of autonomy and extra resources to be able to do what was right by the kids and communities in each of those schools. And so Mhmm. You hear a lot of these ideas. Right?
Ron Rapatalo:I'm just like, wait a second. I remember Tammy talking the same exact way about Yes. Restructuring and having more, I think, focus and purpose in Newark Public Schools. And so you hear these things, it's like, it doesn't surprise me Doctor. Lonza was doing the same thing was.
Ron Rapatalo:A couple of years before.
Shayna Renee Hammond:He was, you know, this was the era where it was very results focused. And so for him, he really wanted to kind of stamp that you can have more autonomy as long as, right, you're also getting tremendous results for students and families. And he really wanted to make sure that that was clear as he was coming in.
Ron Rapatalo:So where did the road take you next after that transformation school's role? Did you say interrelations? Like, yeah, I'm curious. What what's next in this shit story?
Shayna Renee Hammond:Of course. So when I was a principal, I was a KIPP principal, Knowledge is Power Program at in Baltimore City in Park Heights. And so, during that year, I was actually recruited back by KIPP Foundation, KIPP nationally. They sought me out to run their teacher leader cohort. KIPP at the time was growing really rapidly, and they knew that they had to get more intentional about building their leaders from within, their school leaders And from so they said, we saw what you did at your own school, what you're doing here in Baltimore City.
Shayna Renee Hammond:We would love for you to come. At the time, I was actually seven to eight months pregnant with my first child.
Ron Rapatalo:Wow.
Shayna Renee Hammond:And, part of the pitch was you can work from home. And back then I'm like, what does, what does that mean? This is 2009. No one really went
Ron Rapatalo:I've never heard of. Yeah. I didn't even
Shayna Renee Hammond:know what that meant. But because it was a national job, will require, of course, some travel. But that is why we were, you know, a pretty remote team. We worked all over the country. And so I said, oh, it was a tough decision because I really did have a great job at city schools.
Shayna Renee Hammond:Really enjoyed my team. We made some moves just in that one year. Yeah. But then seeing how I could have a national impact, also working from home, my own family structure had shifted. And so that's what I did for the next three years.
Shayna Renee Hammond:You know, helped double that program, more than double that program in size nationally. Many of those teacher leaders that I, you know, supported and becoming school leaders are now CAOs and superintendents and doing all sorts of amazing things in education.
Ron Rapatalo:That must be really cool to see that the imprint and support that, mister Veasley gave you, you had the opportunity to do Fast Forward, not only in supporting transformation schools at Baltimore City, but at at KIPP. Yeah. Is there one person in particular that, like, sticks out to you that you supported that you'd wanna share a story about quickly?
Shayna Renee Hammond:Oh my goodness. You mean in in KIPP in particular?
Ron Rapatalo:Yes. Yeah. While you're in that role.
Shayna Renee Hammond:KIPP in particular. That's really hard. I supported a lot of people.
Ron Rapatalo:Yeah.
Shayna Renee Hammond:I probably, and there's so many and who I'm reflecting on now is who once I became an entrepreneur, who I also got to kind of support in that role and seeing them kind of grow and grow and grow. It's really hard to say. I mean, peers, I even think about peers though. I think about Laura Bowen, who, her and I were actually in the Kipps School Leadership Program together at the same time in 2005. Watching her, her journey, very similar journey, just kind of grow into a phenomenal leadership coach and work, you know, at the foundation level.
Shayna Renee Hammond:She was a huge influence in her own region in DC. I think about her, I think about Malcolm Brooks, who's in, North Carolina, who was also a teacher leader, and I was able to support him once I became an entrepreneur, and the tremendous work he continues, to do as a school leader, been doing it in, you know, doing a school leader job for a very long time, which is really hard to do for a very long time.
Ron Rapatalo:Yes.
Shayna Renee Hammond:I think about Jessica Cunningham, who also was a leader here in Washington, DC. We also went through the program together in 2005. I mean, I could go on and I mean, there are
Ron Rapatalo:so
Shayna Renee Hammond:many leaders, so many teacher leaders that, I've had the honor and privilege of teaching, of supporting, of coaching, that are just doing absolutely amazing things now.
Ron Rapatalo:You know what this feels like to me? It's like looking at folks, like, before they get to the NBA. Right? It's like you look at them at the draft. March Madness is on at the time of this recording, and then Oh.
Ron Rapatalo:You know, coaches and all the people that port into it is all of a sudden, it's like five years later, ten years later, look at that NBA All Star. They won the championship. And then you rewind back to those early stories, and you go, oh, oh my god. Got a lot of the talent, but that support and that coaching and the people you're around. Yeah.
Ron Rapatalo:You can make or break the direction you go into just like it did for you, Shayna.
Shayna Renee Hammond:It's so true. It's so true. I'm very grateful to be
Ron Rapatalo:able to do it. So how did you decide on entrepreneurship? Because I think I have this notion of a lot of times in my anecdotal knowledge of entrepreneurs, myself and my wife, you, it sort of like finds us. It's not something that ever was on the like bingo card. You know what I'm saying?
Shayna Renee Hammond:And it fits me so well. And yet it wasn't on my bingo card. So this, the way it happened was, you know, I was working for foundation. I was working nationally. By this time I had my first child, then I had my second right after my first.
Shayna Renee Hammond:And so, as I said, KIP was growing really fast. And so the travel schedule ramped up and up and up and up, I'm breastfeeding and I'm on freshman planes and trains and automobiles. I mean, literally, you know, the pace just kept picking up. I just had a moment where I was like, you know, I love the work that I do. And I love being a mom and I have to figure this out.
Shayna Renee Hammond:And I really want to be a room mom in Judah's class. Judah at the time was three going on four. And I just wanted to lean in more. I wanted to be home more. Joel was a baby, you know, still growing up.
Shayna Renee Hammond:And so I said, you know what? I, and I had been hiring at this point, a lot of consultants as I was working nationally and putting on all of these events for leaders, across the country, and, you know, started talking to them about, how did you get started? You know, wonderful work that you do. What does that look like? And decided, Okay, I think I can figure out a way to still do what I love be the kind of present mom that I want to be.
Shayna Renee Hammond:So that's how I got into it. And my first client actually ended up being someone I had hired years ago as a consultant. She was just so happened to be the chief academic officer of an LEA here in Washington, DC.
Ron Rapatalo:She said,
Shayna Renee Hammond:Oh my goodness, you're going out on your own. I want you to coach all my principals. So my first contact was coaching four of her principals.
Ron Rapatalo:Wow.
Shayna Renee Hammond:And, and I was able to write the coaching methodology that we have at Lead for Liberation. This was, gosh, almost fourteen years ago. And yeah, that was my first client and the rest is history. And you know how entrepreneurship is, it just kind of snowballs. So for me, I just had, I knew I had to make a certain figure to make the household run.
Shayna Renee Hammond:And I made that figure in my first contract. And I went, woah, I didn't know. And so those first group of leaders, one of them went on to be the fastest growing principal, got recognized by the mayor. And so my name started getting, you know, passed around and what is this principal prep program? And then before I knew it, I had too much work.
Shayna Renee Hammond:And so I had to hire a team and I started, you know, sharing the And here we are now almost, you know, fourteen years later, 15 staff members, you know, serving leaders, not only in education, but, financial institutions and social impact organizations, across the country. And that's it just started from wanting to be
Ron Rapatalo:a present mom. Wow. Which is not a surprise that how these things start, right? So many jobs, particularly for women, particularly for black women, don't allow the space to be able to do both. Right.
Ron Rapatalo:And you shouldn't have to choose. No. Oftentimes, you're asked to choose.
Shayna Renee Hammond:You have to choose.
Ron Rapatalo:Right? I recorded an episode with Nadia Lopez a little bit ago that'll be coming out at some point. And her story of just what she dealt with as an incredible principal in Brownsville and just how much, you know, the system didn't allow her to focus on her wellness. In fact, like, these these disincentivized it. And it took her, I think, I'll I'll speak kind of like in code, but like almost nine.
Ron Rapatalo:It took almost nine to figure out, like, that path of like, this is not the way. And I I think very similar to you, and and I I wanna go into, now this, newest iteration of what you're doing Indigo Unbound in a sec, but, you know, pouring into leaders so they don't have to go through what she went through. Exactly.
Shayna Renee Hammond:Yeah. And that's oftentimes what motivates us. I mean, first principal coaching program, the methodology that I wrote was literally the support I wish I had as a young principal. And I knew exactly how to craft it because I was that principal,
Ron Rapatalo:Yeah.
Shayna Renee Hammond:You know, who was just completely burned out, you know, burning the candle at both ends, just trying to make it all work, had Herculean expectations, you know. And it
Ron Rapatalo:was into twenty twenty six, unfortunately. I might argue you're probably seeing it from like who is being focused inside of your organization that it's gotten much more intense.
Shayna Renee Hammond:It has. It has. Especially post pandemic, it has gotten very intense.
Ron Rapatalo:Yeah. So talk to me about Indigo Unbound.
Shayna Renee Hammond:Yes. Indigo Unbound is my divine assignment right now. And I am so excited about it. So I started what's called Indigo Women six years ago now. Because of what I was seeing as I was coaching different executives and the three verticals that I mentioned, many of them were Black women.
Shayna Renee Hammond:And I kept seeing very similar to what you were saying, trends, trends of being forced to choose, of being burned out, of getting amazing results, of working, having one title, but really having three jobs within that one title, and having their inner world and their personal world crumble at the expense of, you know, the results that they were producing in the workplace. And so I said, you know, this isn't just another program, within Lead for Liberation. This is its own container. And it was something God was, you know, definitely guiding me toward. And I finally said yes in March 2020, when the world was kind of closing in, I said, you know what?
Shayna Renee Hammond:I'm going to create a container specifically for Black women all around self care for high achieving women who've been doing all of the things personally and professionally as an invitation to come back home to themselves. And I wrote a methodology, a few weeks before that. It was a nine week group coaching program. I ran it 10 times, 10 cohorts. Women were life changing.
Shayna Renee Hammond:I mean, they were starting their own businesses. They were, you know, entering marriage, exiting toxic relationships. They were getting pregnant. They were resting more. They were saying yes, they were saying no.
Shayna Renee Hammond:And they were finally breathing. I was like, I got it. And then I got the next kind of nudge from spirit said, it's time now to open this space up to men as well. And I'd been getting that message from various men. I have amazing Black men in my life.
Shayna Renee Hammond:Kept getting it, getting it. I was like, Ah, okay, yes.
Ron Rapatalo:Yeah.
Shayna Renee Hammond:I'm so glad that I did. We just ran our first session, for Black men.
Ron Rapatalo:Beautiful.
Shayna Renee Hammond:At the educators convening, Black men's educators convening in Philadelphia.
Ron Rapatalo:Oh, good old It
Shayna Renee Hammond:was awesome. Standing room only, 100 Black men, and they were just like, please don't This is exactly what we need right now. So Indigo Unbound is that place for Black entrepreneurs and leaders to do the inner work necessary in order to keep having the expansive outer impact and wealth that is their birthright. And so I love to do it. It's it's like a culmination of everything I've done.
Shayna Renee Hammond:When I've coached, I mean, I've coached so many leaders, the past two decades, and the common thread of the leaders who kind of, you know, can sustain quote unquote success, however they define that, it's the leaders who really commit to doing their ongoing inner healing work. And so that's what Indigo Unbound is all about. It's that place where you go, and sometimes I say it's just the place you go to do life. It's the place you go to do life so that you can continue to do what you're called
Ron Rapatalo:to do. Yeah. You know, the thought bubble that I've had flashing at like, it's been a really big thought bubble is why isn't something like Indigo Unbound existing inside of our systems? So here's my here's my related thought. Okay.
Ron Rapatalo:You're a fellow athlete like me, right? Yes. The athlete there are many athletes I geek out about, right? But the one that's coming to mind because it's year 20 '3 for this brother is the brawn.
Shayna Renee Hammond:Of course. Yes. How healthy that man is.
Ron Rapatalo:It doesn't make sense. Yeah. But yet it makes sense when people talk about all the hard work, all the the mobility work, the all the things he does, and people make fun of him about him. Like, there's a reason why he still plays at the level that he has because there's any athlete across sports that is poured into their care Mhmm. Wellness Mhmm.
Ron Rapatalo:By far, it's him. Yes. He's the standard. Right? And I watch our space.
Ron Rapatalo:Mhmm. I go, boy, school leaders have been given a really raw deal, expected to drop all star, all NBA numbers, to use that analogy, without any of the support. You ain't got a personal trainer. You ain't got a physical therapist. You ain't even got someone to give you a massage.
Ron Rapatalo:You know what I'm saying? And you're expected to perform at that level. Yeah. You just gotta go put ice, an ice pack on yourself.
Shayna Renee Hammond:Yeah. Bananas to be. It is. It's wild. It is absolutely wild.
Shayna Renee Hammond:So let me
Ron Rapatalo:ask you. I want to spitball. I'm sure you've thought about this. Like, what would it take to start changing our school system so that these things were provided inside inside of the system rather than Black leaders had to seek you out. And maybe they're getting paid by the organizations, but I'm guessing that a number of them pay out of their own dime.
Ron Rapatalo:They know that if they don't, they're not going to survive and thrive inside of their leadership roles.
Shayna Renee Hammond:Yeah. I mean, our system is broken, right? It's been broken from its inception. Incredibly broken. It's incredibly I call white supremacy the sick collective consciousness.
Shayna Renee Hammond:That's what it I mean, that's the air that
Ron Rapatalo:it's breathing,
Shayna Renee Hammond:that all of our systems are breathing. That's right. And so the sick collective consciousness is built on scarcity mindset. It's built on, we don't have enough time for that. We have to do this.
Shayna Renee Hammond:It's built on false urgency. It's built on put band aids and just keep bulldozing through. There's a whole adaptive cultural change that would have to happen within a system for this to be invited, right? Yeah. There are some systems, that have great relationships with smaller school systems who want to partner and, you know, want their folks to have, you know, this as a resource and are, you know, subsidizing, which is amazing, which is great.
Shayna Renee Hammond:And that's where we are right now. We're going to meet people, but we're not going to wait for a system to meet it, know, and give us what we need. Can't wait. We cannot wait at all. And so that's why entrepreneurship also is important.
Shayna Renee Hammond:You have to have those kinds of innovators, those folks who are futurists, are thinking about what could be, and going at what could be right now and bringing that to the now, before we wait for bigger systems to, you know, follow suit.
Ron Rapatalo:Yeah. I'm gonna take a pivot because I know that when you and I got the chat and I've seen your Facebook is you did a CrossFit Open recently, correct?
Shayna Renee Hammond:I did. I did.
Ron Rapatalo:Tell me about what the training was like for that and how it went.
Shayna Renee Hammond:I'm so curious. Oh my goodness. You're catching me just as I saw my results. I just got my results last night. I'm so excited.
Shayna Renee Hammond:Oh, yay. Okay.
Ron Rapatalo:Do tell.
Shayna Renee Hammond:I'm so excited. So the process, it is a process. I didn't realize how much. So I only, it's such a process and I only trained for about two and a half months before this one. This one, I'm using this CrossFit Open as a diagnostic.
Shayna Renee Hammond:So I'm really committing to the sport. I'm going to really treat this upcoming year as like my training year and to see
Ron Rapatalo:how well I
Shayna Renee Hammond:but yeah, I just, so part of, 2025 was really tough, I think for a lot of people, definitely myself included. And spirit just kept saying over and over, focus on your body, focus on your body. And I remember praying and saying, you know, I feel stuck. And Spirit literally said so loudly, you're stuck because you're not training like the athlete you are. And I was like, oof.
Shayna Renee Hammond:Don't spirit have a way
Ron Rapatalo:of reminding you going back to what you were doing when you were younger?
Shayna Renee Hammond:Go back to what you know, right? Like I thought, Oh, I'm going to the gym. I'm doing these like, no, no, no, no, no, no. You know who you are. You know, I've been an athlete since I was four.
Shayna Renee Hammond:I know the difference between exercising and training. And he had been saying train. So since the gym I've been going to was a CrossFit gym, I was like, all right, I'm So I found out about the CrossFit Open. So basically the CrossFit Open is a series of three workouts over a series of three weeks. So for three Saturdays in a row, you have a specific workout that everyone in the CrossFit universe around the world does, and we all compete against each other.
Shayna Renee Hammond:And you have to submit your scores and all of that if you really want to compete in that way. So my particular gym, I love my gym. My gym, skews a little older in the CrossFit world, which is great. Many of us are working parents, you know, many of us-
Ron Rapatalo:That's dope.
Shayna Renee Hammond:You know, has beens and athletes who are getting back into it. And then there are some who are like pros, you know? But most of us are, you know, former athletes. And so for many of them, they were just like, Oh, I'm just going to work out. And I was like, Oh no, I'm, I'm in this open.
Shayna Renee Hammond:So I had a judge. I brought my camera. I had to have my foot boarded. Like they had to make sure my reps were complete and clean.
Ron Rapatalo:They're not playing. Yeah.
Shayna Renee Hammond:Not playing. When I tell you it was so hard and so humbling, my lungs felt like they were in my throat. Was so relaxing and so difficult. And it's bringing me back to, you know, my learner self and my curious self and, learning new skills, then skills that I used to be able to do so easily that now all of a sudden I can't do, know, at 45. And I'm like, ah, but my body used to be able to do this.
Shayna Renee Hammond:And it's just teaching me a different level of just self love, and of the power of coming back home to yourself. I cannot tell you how much energy I have now, how, I see now so many different connections to, Oh, you also wanted my intensity to go up because my visibility and what you're having me to do now requires a different level of, of visibility, a different level of leadership. And I have to have the capacity to be able to hold that. And these workouts and this open is all encompassed into that. Mean, it has me eating differently.
Shayna Renee Hammond:It has me
Ron Rapatalo:I have to. Yeah.
Shayna Renee Hammond:Sleeping differently. I mean, it's literally my whole life has shifted around, you know, really being the athlete again that I always was. And it feels great.
Ron Rapatalo:I've always thought that doing social impact leadership, which includes school leadership, but includes, you know, people, the C suite, the rung below, CEOs, EDs, requires the mindset. I would also argue like a lot of the physical training. Not everyone has to do CrossFit open. That's my asterisk. Right?
Ron Rapatalo:And I was to be a power lifter. If you follow me on Instagram, people like, Ron, you moved some weights. I'm like, oh, know. I enjoy it. And it's also many years running.
Ron Rapatalo:It's not like I just started if you see a workout like this has been four or five years running, laid around weights since college and you have to enjoy. But I think that mindset and something to train for. Yes. Because that energy capacity. Yes.
Ron Rapatalo:There is required for you to like lead something big is tremendous.
Shayna Renee Hammond:It's tremendous. It's tremendous. And it reminds me of how much we don't know, you know, and that's what's exciting is like, I don't know all of what's around the corner. I know that, whoo, if you're you're having me do this, there's a lot around that corner. And we prepared what we can't, for what we can't see yet, for what's being planned for us to be able to step through.
Shayna Renee Hammond:And it's just reminding me of that. Yeah. And it's just awakens like the fighter in me, the like, joy in me. I mean, everything is just like heightened. And so glad that that I did that, that I obeyed that.
Ron Rapatalo:Well, is the right energy moment, Shayna, to ask you the Ronderings question.
Shayna Renee Hammond:Okay.
Ron Rapatalo:What lesson or value do you want to share with the audience?
Shayna Renee Hammond:You know, I often, as an entrepreneur, I get asked, questions like, what should I do first? I talk to early stage entrepreneurs, and what should we focus on first? And you know, if you think about those few things that really added up to your success as an entrepreneur, as an educator, and it really does come down to what we're talking about right now, which is energy, investing in your energy. Doesn't have to be a CrossFit open. What it's looked like for me over the years, sometimes that looked like investing in more rest, and renewal.
Shayna Renee Hammond:And so I went to spiritual retreats more often. I have a radical self care trip that I take every year just by myself, by the water. Water is very nourishing to me. I come back just ready to like do whatever. My energy then is, you know, through the roof.
Shayna Renee Hammond:So I would just say, you know, if I, if there's anything anyone learns from me, I hope it's that to really invest in your energy and your inner life, because it's really truly your foundation for any and everything that you want to do or be or accomplish. You're not going to be able to do that unless you have optimal energy levels, which then translates into a raised consciousness level. You're able to reach more people with just your presence. There are times where people are like, how do you do that, Shayna? Like you walk into a room, you say very little and things, the entire room shifts.
Shayna Renee Hammond:It's because I invest in my energy. People feel that warmth. People feel the joy. People feel the momentum. They get up a little bit straighter.
Ron Rapatalo:That's right.
Shayna Renee Hammond:Because of the work that I do every single day to read my energy.
Ron Rapatalo:And I'm sure, Shayna, you and I can, like, pontificate about the 5,000 things to do. Morning meditation did did it's it's a list of things. It can be overwhelming. And the last parting thought here, if this was not only a competency, but a large driver in leadership development programs in schools, we that could be a game changer. I don't see like, you know, one of the guests that I had, Mary Rice Booth, talked about it in her, in her competencies for like, you know, school leaders of color, like that one on wellness was a big part of it.
Ron Rapatalo:I'm like, never seen it talked about. I think also my buddy Harrison Peters at M cell has it from like interviewing all the school leaders He's of color. He's interviewed over time. That's part of like their competencies. Right?
Ron Rapatalo:But of course, surprise, surprise, it's driven by us. It's driven by us. Right. It is. It's, oh my God.
Ron Rapatalo:Well, we get going, Shayna, what would you like to promote? How do people find you?
Shayna Renee Hammond:Yes, you can find me at indigounbound.com. We are, we are doing a retreat in October in Las Vegas. Cannot wait. It's going to be absolutely incredible. Registration is open.
Shayna Renee Hammond:We also have an ongoing virtual community that just opened called the Grounded Lounge. Grounded is both the invitation and the name it literally is, programming every single week around how, how to stay grounded. You heard me talk about energy. We talked a little bit about the practices that we do, but this is where my team and myself, we literally provide space and containers for us to do the work together. So if you want to do that work in community, you're done kind of figuring it out on your own, join the Grounded Lounge.
Shayna Renee Hammond:You can go to our website to find out more about how to apply. And you can always see us, hear us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and Facebook, Indigo Unbound, or me, Shayna Renee Hammond.
Ron Rapatalo:Beautiful. Well, you, Shayna, for sharing your wisdom and your story in this episode. And I end with the words of one of my favorite sports icons of all time, the Dion Sanders. We always come hot with guests like Shayna Renee Hammond.
Shayna Renee Hammond:Peace. Thank you. Thank you so much, Ron.
Ron Rapatalo:You're welcome. There's a through line in everything Shayna shared today, and it's this. Your impact would never outpace your energy. The five year old navigating hate without internalizing it, the fifth grader being seen for the first time, the principal leading transformation, the founder helping others reclaim themselves. Common denominator is intentional energy investment.
Ron Rapatalo:Physical, spiritual, emotional. So leadership isn't just strategy, presence. Presence is something you build. It's been a reminder that when you do the inner work, ground yourself, train your body, renew your spirit. Don't just show up differently.
Ron Rapatalo:People feel it. They sit up straight or they listen differently. They respond to you at a higher level. The question I leave you with is, what are you investing in your energy right now? That might be the very thing unlocking the next level of leadership.
Ron Rapatalo:Peace. Thank you for listening to today's Ronderings. I enjoyed hanging out with me and my guests, and I hope you leave with something worth chewing on. If it made you smile, think, or even roll your eyes in a good way, pass it along to someone else. I'm Ronder Rapatalo, until next time, keep raundering, keep laughing, and keep becoming.
Ron Rapatalo:Podcaststhatmatter.org.
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