Episode 88
· 58:49
What's up? I'm Ron Rapatalo, and this is the Ronderings podcast. Around here, I sit down with guests for real, unpolished conversations about the lessons and values that shaped them. And I'll be right there with you, sharing my own take, laughing at myself when I need to, and wondering out loud about this messy thing called life. Glad you pulled up a chair.
Ron Rapatalo:Let's get into it. Welcome back to Ronderings, where we slow down, reflect, and tell the truth about leadership, wellness, and the systems that shape us. Today's conversation is one I've been holding with care. My guest is doctor Maya M. Faison, educator, former statewide advocacy, CEO, coach, mother tree, and a truth teller for women of color navigating education reform and leadership.
Ron Rapatalo:Maya's story begins in Philadelphia, nearly denied opportunity because of biased expectations, later propelled forward by one principal who chose to see her brilliance. That moment shaped a life committed to equity, policy change, and advocacy at the highest levels. But this episode isn't just about success, it's about what it cost. You talk about surviving educational reform as a black woman leader, board sabotage, erasure, health impacts, and the quiet pressure to shrink to fit systems never designed for you. This is a conversation about reclaiming your voice, redefining failure, and leading without abandoning yourself.
Ron Rapatalo:Let's get into it. Hey, friends. Before we get started, I wanna share something that's been a big part of my own journey. Two years ago, I published my book Leverage. That experience cracked something open for me.
Ron Rapatalo:I saw how publishing isn't just about pages, about owning your story, sharpening your voice, and amplifying your impact. The part that meant the most, readers reached out to me to say they felt seen. That's when I knew this work mattered. I loved it so much I cofounded Leverage Publishing Group with friends who would make know this world inside and out. Now we help leaders, entrepreneurs, and change makers turn their ideas into books and podcasts that actually move people.
Ron Rapatalo:Got a star in you, and I know you do. Let's chat. Find me on LinkedIn or at leveragepublishinggroup.com. Because the world doesn't just need more books, it needs your book. Alright.
Ron Rapatalo:Let's get to today's episode. Peace. Ronderings fam. Got another amazing guest today to present to you all to learn from her wisdom or expertise and just overall brilliance. Dr. Maya B.
Ron Rapatalo:Faison is on the mic with us today. How you doing Maya?
Dr. Maya M. Faison:Hey, how you doing Ron?
Ron Rapatalo:You know, I often wear my New York Knicks t shirt while I'm on these recordings, and so I'm wearing it and hoping that my team can get back on track, but otherwise I'm okay. Just with all the crazy things going on in the world, it's like balancing that and seeing what you can do to affect change there while also trying to still find the pockets of joy and resistance that you can at this time.
Dr. Maya M. Faison:So Yeah, well I'm originally from Philly so I'm not allowed to root for anything New York, that's just, I didn't make the rules, it's just
Ron Rapatalo:No, that is, it's so funny, so when I was working out today, right, because I live in Jersey City right across the water from New York and so most of the people at my gym root for New York's teams. Right? And so there's a fortunately yes. I said as a New Yorker. Unfortunately, couple of Phillies fans who have no problem showing their eagle fandom.
Ron Rapatalo:And so we were making fun of Phillies sports fans while we were working out today. Was just like, boy. I know it's funny. We let them go work out with us. Right?
Ron Rapatalo:I'm like, yeah, man. I I'm sure the feeling gets mutual around the rapidness and craziness in New York City sports fans because we are we're, we're a handful. Exactly. So Maya, why don't we get right into it? What is your story?
Dr. Maya M. Faison:Yeah. Was, I was saying earlier, I, this is a hard question, right? Cause I'm trying to figure, you know, do I want to start at the beginning, the end or kind of current or kind of immediate recess? I think that's how we used to say it in my English classes. I'll start with, I am a woman right now on a mission to help transform and disrupt how women in leadership view what requires what's required of them.
Dr. Maya M. Faison:I'm trying to disrupt what it means to be a good leader, right? And so, and part of that is coming from my own experience, when I was a new leader all the way into my senior years, right? Just experiencing certain situations, put in certain stressors on myself, setting certain expectations or trying to live to other people's expectations. And this kind of sits heavy with me and it's kind of a through line kind of thinking how we let other people's expectations dictate our own peace and our own joy and our own level of accomplishment. Right.
Dr. Maya M. Faison:And so I think about growing out of Philly, as I mentioned, I'm from Philly born and raised. And, you know, there were a lot of things that were dictated by other people's expectations of who I was supposed to be and what I was supposed to do. And so I sometimes tell the story of, you know, I really believe that a lot of where I was able to get to today was because of the support from my parents. Yes. But also the education I was able to get, but I almost was not going to get that education because of certain expectations that people have put upon me and my family.
Dr. Maya M. Faison:That's a black Philly. So I grew up in public schools, whole life through K-twelve. And, you know, I remember going to my parents and telling them I want to go to a school called Masterman, Julia R. Masterman, it's a laboratory school, it's a magnet school.
Ron Rapatalo:Okay.
Dr. Maya M. Faison:And this little girl told me one day, you know, I go to Masterman, you're not smart enough to get into that school. Right. So I'm like, okay, challenge accepted, right? The gloves are off. So I go to my parents, I say, Hey, I'm going go to Masterman.
Dr. Maya M. Faison:My parents, they go to the school, to my elementary school. They start talking to the counselor, talking to the principals and initially tell us, you know, where we got to look into some things. We'll let you know if we think she qualifies. Fortunately, we had a principal at the time who advocated for me. I got into this school.
Dr. Maya M. Faison:It's yet a test into this school, top school in the tri state area. One of the top schools. Yeah. What I found out was that my older sister, they tried to do this process with her as well. But at that time the principal and counselor said, Masterman doesn't take kids from schools like ours.
Dr. Maya M. Faison:Mastermind doesn't take kids from families like yours. Right. And so I look at my trajectory and the trajectory of my older sister, we had completely different resources, completely different access to different opportunities because of where we were able to get our education. And I just think about if the wrong person would have been in that office when my parents would have went to start filing the paperwork and trying to apply for me to attend this school. I wouldn't be sitting here with you today.
Dr. Maya M. Faison:Most likely that particular school led me to be able to go to all kinds of, you know, private Ivy league specialty universities and such and that gives a certain credibility. Anyway, during my time there, I originally was going to be a doctor when I was a grown up, But then I started volunteering, tutoring, working with young kids and I was just devastated. I remember talking to a young student, maybe third grade. We're And looking at the computer. This is back when computers were new, like internet and internet games and, and the young ladies, what do I do now?
Dr. Maya M. Faison:What I do now Maya, what do I do? Screen it says press enter to start. Very simple. I realized the young lady couldn't or the little girl rather, little girl couldn't read. She was like third grade.
Ron Rapatalo:Wow.
Dr. Maya M. Faison:And resonated with me because I was up the street, block, literally one block up the street at Mashman, the top school in the Tri State area. I'm learning algebra in the sixth grade. I'm reading advanced books. I'm going on trips. And why is it that one block up the street at another public school, the little girls can't read.
Dr. Maya M. Faison:That just really kind of put a fire under me. I told my parents I'm switching what I'm focused on. I want to be a doctor because it seemed prestigious, not because I necessarily loved field, but I felt a passion when it came to how do I help disrupt these systems and reset expectations for good girls that look like me.
Ron Rapatalo:Yeah. That's quite the inflection point. It resonates a lot in my own story. I grew up as a child of Philippine immigrants, wanted to be a doctor. Mhmm.
Ron Rapatalo:Partly because there's a cultural expectation that many Filipinos work in health care, but two, the prestige and the rigor of what I saw being a medical doctor, and I think at a inflection point a little bit later in my career, in my life, in my, like, what I call my quarter life crisis, which got me into education. Right? But, you know, that wanting to do something that is gonna have impact for people who look like you, right? Who live around you, you see disparate results, right? Which don't make sense until you start to then go into said system and see that the system was created for those kinds of disparate results.
Dr. Maya M. Faison:Yeah. Yeah. So the other piece of the question of who was my story, just some of the things that helped to identify me. And so identify as a black female and I'm a wife. I'm a mother of three biological children.
Dr. Maya M. Faison:Beautiful. They're all girls, teenage girl, twin girls. The last Oh, wow.
Ron Rapatalo:Oh, yeah. How old are your twins?
Dr. Maya M. Faison:The twins will be 12 in two weeks. So lots of energy and emotions and opinions in my household.
Ron Rapatalo:The 12 year old I know. Yeah. She walks by me.
Dr. Maya M. Faison:I already told them don't don't come in here making a lot of noise today. Doing something important here.
Ron Rapatalo:Nice. So
Dr. Maya M. Faison:apologies in advance if you hear anything weird in the background.
Ron Rapatalo:Part of the Ronderings, like, you know, is that I record with there being things happening because the missus is gonna call grandma, my little one is on my phone, is not making noise right now, but the my 12 year old's going up and down the stairs because she's gonna get ready for a swim lesson in an hour and change, because she does competitive swim, so the cacophony of my household is often incorporated into the sound production of
Dr. Maya M. Faison:this.
Ron Rapatalo:We try to scrub some things, right, but ultimately it's just like we record as we are because we are all usually I'm at not doing this in a studio, this is in my living room.
Dr. Maya M. Faison:Yeah, okay, well good stuff. Well hopefully we'll be okay here.
Ron Rapatalo:Yes, I
Dr. Maya M. Faison:also have recently remarried and I am what you call in the black community, a first lady, first lady of Watson Grove Baptist church. And we can get into that a little bit later about what that all means and how that fits into the mix. And then I'm a coach, I'm a leader, support a lot of women across the country, as I mentioned at the top of the conversation and just helping them to, to, to reclaim their voices and to to stop shrinking.
Ron Rapatalo:Yeah. You led with something I've seen so many Ronderings guests lead with right childhood, the expectations put on either positive or a lot of the times, because a lot of my guests have been people of color, often negative expectations, right? And I think what particularly resonated with me was the advocacy within, and I don't know how much older your older sister is, right, between just a difference in principles makes me think of my own family, right, going to specialize I went to specialized high school myself in New York City, went to Stuyvesant. And just within five years, right, my older sister was not allowed to go to one of the specialized high schools because frankly, she was a girl and my mom was uncomfortable with her commuting on the train.
Dr. Maya M. Faison:Mhmm.
Ron Rapatalo:With me, it was a no and. My fam, my my siblings at Servine, they said, Ronald's a big boy, he can take the train. And it's just, it was solely because of gender that my mom relented. She said, okay, if you say he's gonna be safe, but like, it just, but these things around expectations from educators, expectations within family can much change the trajectory and things you have to find upward against or downward against in order to, like, be where you are.
Dr. Maya M. Faison:Oh, absolutely. I have cousins. I remember having my conversations with them and you know, they were older than me and I remember coming home with my homework and you know, talking about what I'm doing at school and they are looking at my books like, what is that? We're not doing anything near that, you know, and I remember my parents, they are, you know, two of my biggest advocates and champions, right? And I remember them creating, you know, practice tests for me to make sure I'm stead.
Dr. Maya M. Faison:I studied well for my. Remember us sitting around the dinner table and we used to, it sounds nerdy, I guess, but we used to sit around the dinner table and listen to this radio show about science and you can call in, right? I forget the name of the show, but you know, elementary school, call into the radio show. And if you got the right answer, you get prizes. They send you things about, you know, astronomy and how to attract the stars.
Dr. Maya M. Faison:I mean, super nerdy. My parents were all for that. That was like how I grew up. They were, you know, they would give us spelling words and spelling lists in the summertime. So we didn't fall off.
Dr. Maya M. Faison:We used to have to do this is old school, old school. We used to do Mavis Beacon typing was a little computers are still kind of new. My dad built a computer, got the disc, content? So I'm just saying that's the environment that I'm growing up in. Right.
Dr. Maya M. Faison:A lot of people see black women or black men who have been successful. They want them to have a treacherous sob story of their upbringing. Right. I don't have that. I, you know, we were not rich.
Dr. Maya M. Faison:We probably weren't even middle class. We were working class.
Ron Rapatalo:Yeah. Yeah.
Dr. Maya M. Faison:My dad was, that's called blue, blue collar. You know, he worked in a steel mill.
Ron Rapatalo:Okay.
Dr. Maya M. Faison:Mom eventually went back to college, became a CPA and advanced the break. Wow. Amazing. The city controller's office of Philadelphia. Yep.
Dr. Maya M. Faison:But that was my environment. Right? Those expectations that parents had in me superseded the expectations that the world had around
Ron Rapatalo:me and
Dr. Maya M. Faison:that certain people in school had for me. And so that allowed for me to accelerate my my work, my success, my impact, and allowed me to also learn how to advocate for myself.
Ron Rapatalo:Yeah. So I'm seeing this thread of advocacy. Right? Because without that, right, the principal at your elementary school, your family. Right?
Ron Rapatalo:You're you're, you know, getting the the the practices and all those things. Right? That, you know, I I'm sure this resonates with you, especially as you are coaching leaders and women of color, black women yourself, right, is none of this comes in isolation. There's no such thing as the singular person does everything themselves. Right?
Ron Rapatalo:That's a made up myth that, unfortunately American society loves to like, you know, talk about. It's like, this person's so self made, and they fought through all the odds. It's like, no, but they don't like to tell the story of like all of the unseen people. There's, I think in the Hollywood version of this, it's just like, you know, if I'm thinking of like, Maya Baffin's Hollywood version, there certainly would be your principal, there'd be this big scene, right, in terms of like that happening. Of course, your parents would be at the center of it all, but it's just interesting to me that, you know, there are probably many other people you and I could talk about.
Ron Rapatalo:It's like, who are the other advocates that you've had from like childhood through like college, right? And this is not even getting to adulthood, because I'm sure you had plenty. But I think my point is I'm wondering how your advocacy and moving into wanting to go into education evolved as you went through your educational career now as a coach.
Dr. Maya M. Faison:Yeah. Initially I started in the education space with the mindset of, I want to get in here and advocate for better systems, more effective systems and policies that are going to help change lives of students in every public school, not just the specialty ones, not just the magnet ones, because we all deserve access. So that was my motivation to get into the ed sector. And I built upon that motivation. Initially I started off as a classroom teacher out of my graduate program at Harvard.
Dr. Maya M. Faison:I got my teacher licensure, master's in urban education. I didn't even hear about Teach for America. I'd never even heard of it, you know, and I went to university of Penn and no one ever told me about it.
Ron Rapatalo:Right. Wow.
Dr. Maya M. Faison:I had a traditional teacher ed license and because, and I always say I took the long route, but I wanted to situate myself inside of the system that I was working to change and disrupt. And eventually I would move into policy work. I was one of the original, what do you call, teacher ambassador fellows with the US Department of Education. Right? And now they've been going for years and years and years.
Ron Rapatalo:So Graham? I do. There's someone in my Ed world. She used to teach with my wife in the Bronx. Genevieve DeBose was a teacher ambassador through that, I believe that same program, if I'm getting the program.
Dr. Maya M. Faison:Her name sounds familiar.
Ron Rapatalo:Yeah. She's been at the partnership for Los Angeles schools for some time. She's an incredible educator like you.
Dr. Maya M. Faison:I wonder if she her name sounds familiar. The purpose of that program, right, was to get the insights and feedback and, you know, information from teachers to inform and help to create policy since the folks in the US Department of Ed were not necessarily fully connected and grounded to what's happening in schools. And so I had gone with the policy work there and my goal was to be in schools and then be able to come out of schools, having that experience of what's happening, what's happening. So I got to work in arts school, public school, and then I also got to work in a school that was going through the turnaround process because their school was so slow. So I got to work in different, different types of schools to see what was happening.
Dr. Maya M. Faison:And so that obviously was, I was leaning on policy and then I started thinking about, all right, what are some other things that are impacting how students are experiencing this sector and is my, is my power best used in the classroom? And I decided it was not. And so I moved into nonprofit work and advocating for students in that way. For the less, for almost a decade, I led a statewide policy and advocacy organization, up until about 2024. Okay.
Dr. Maya M. Faison:And that work was to help ensure that we had equitable and meaningful policies at the state level and at the district levels to help turn things around for students. I think now I've moved away from directly, working through student advocacy and now I'm working more so on how do we advocate for ourselves so that we can be better leaders for whoever, whatever population you're working with, whether you're working in schools or you're working with businesses or you're working with adults, whatever it is you're doing, how do you make sure that you can advocate for yourself? And that through line for the work I'm doing right now is helping folks to find their voice, helping folks to lead with authenticity, helping to disrupt how they're imagining what it means to be a good leader. And the big thing that a lot of people don't realize is we're working towards how to transform their relationship with failure and how they view that. So they can be better advocates for themselves, better advocates for each other.
Dr. Maya M. Faison:And also just know how, like, if I fail, it doesn't make me a failure. It means this initiative fail. Right. And so those are all the ways I'm trying to, I started in the classroom or started tutoring in high school, came through the classroom, different fellowships and such. And then I kind of resituated my advocacy work through nonprofit leadership and now as a consultant and leadership coach and executive planner.
Ron Rapatalo:Right. Let me keep it real. A lot of us have write a book sitting in our goals list, maybe for years. I sure did. Good news is there's more than one way to get it done.
Ron Rapatalo:If you've got more money than time, a ghostwriter can help bring your story to life. If you got more time than money, a great book coach can guide you through the process step by step.
Dr. Maya M. Faison:If you've
Ron Rapatalo:already written a thing, you'll want someone to shepherd you through publishing so you don't waste time or cash. Here's the thing though, no matter how you do it, the real win is writing the right book. The one that builds your credibility, grows your business, and actually makes a difference. That's what the team at Books That Matter is all about. Head to booksthatmatter.org and get some feedback in your ID or manuscript.
Ron Rapatalo:Don't sit on it any longer, your book could be exactly what the world needs. So I imagine there was maybe not a singular moment, but if you can remember like that switch from like doing advocacy on behalf of students to advocacy for other leaders like you, I imagine there was a point you knew you needed to switch into that. How did you know that you needed to move into that? Right? Because I think so many folks I know who do direct service work like you, And you switch to like coaching, right?
Ron Rapatalo:Consulting, there's usually something that gets you to say, this needs to be my next level of impact. I'm wondering if you have a particular moment that comes to mind.
Dr. Maya M. Faison:Yeah. That's kind of several moments. What, you know, advocating for students and all the things, but I was having these experiences as a black female CEO in an operating Yeah. And I did not have the champions that I needed when I first started off in that, in that position. And there was, you know, people weren't using this word at the time, but I'm being microaggression after microaggression, I'd escalate these and say they were actually macro aggressions.
Dr. Maya M. Faison:Suddenly we're just straight up aggressions. Right.
Ron Rapatalo:Mean,
Dr. Maya M. Faison:and so I experienced these things and, you know, the more you experienced, you know, folks questioning you, doubting you, I remember one person came and told me, hey, I know we hired you as the CEO, but there's this other guy.
Ron Rapatalo:But, oh god. There's this
Dr. Maya M. Faison:other guy. Right? And I think you should hire him as your president. They never even had a president role, but I think you should create a role as president. And I think you should hire him and you should let him kind of run the organization a bit and you can be the face, your great face for the organization.
Dr. Maya M. Faison:It was a nonprofit focused on policy and advocacy.
Ron Rapatalo:If that is not the most gaslighting thing that I've heard in my life, my God.
Dr. Maya M. Faison:I can't make up some of the stories I have about the microaggressions and just
Ron Rapatalo:If there's not a definition of like a blackface comment to a black female, I
Dr. Maya M. Faison:don't And the irony of it was it was a white male that they were, they were telling me, or this person was telling me I needed to hire to run the organization because that's shocking to have hired first place. So, I mean, the get just assault after assault, right? You start seeing people that you're supposed to be working with. You start seeing them to make up things about your team. I mean, I've had so many stories around.
Dr. Maya M. Faison:I won't even get into it, but my point is when you have issue over issue over issue and you feel people are kind of throwing darts at you, though we had amazing work, right, we had a basically a 100% success rate in passing positive legislation on behalf of public charter schools. Why? And we have nearly a 100% success rate in blocking negative legislation as compared for, for public charter schools, which is unheard of. And most of our legislation we were able to pass in the first year round, which is definitely unheard of. But even still, it was hard to advocate for myself during some of these times because when you hear certain things so much, feel people are really not trying to support what you're doing.
Dr. Maya M. Faison:You start to internalize and like maybe at more, maybe it is me. Maybe I am being offensive or maybe I am, you know, overreacting. Maybe it's not what I think it is. Right. You start questioning yourself until I started going around the country to different conferences, different summits, retreats.
Ron Rapatalo:Remember meeting you at EdLoC Convening, yeah, years ago.
Dr. Maya M. Faison:EdLoC spaces in particular where I would run into other black women in nonprofit ed reform work. And here's where I found that this was not an individual situation. Is a systemic approach to how to tear down black women and women of color in leadership. And once that clicked for me, oh, well this isn't a Maya thing. This is a Us thing.
Dr. Maya M. Faison:Right. I started thinking through how do I, how do I help women pivot? Because there was a moment where I might not have pivot. I may have internalized and believed what was being fed to me. Right.
Ron Rapatalo:That
Dr. Maya M. Faison:case, I would have stayed smaller than I needed to be. I would have stayed more silent. I wouldn't be able to speak up, not just for myself, but in times where I saw policy moving in a direction that I didn't agree with, I wouldn't have had the courage to speak up. And so I started thinking, how do I help other women make the pivot as I have done so that they're not permanently shrunken and permanently silenced in this space that is just so aggressive towards black women and women of color in leadership. Yeah.
Dr. Maya M. Faison:So that's why I moved into coaching and supporting, women, to help them because you know, I get to talking to these women and I tell them, you know, you're not alone. This is not, this is not you. It is a burden lifted off of their shoulders. And we've talked through different strategies on how to reclaim your voice, how to, I call it how to heal over hustle, you know, factors. How you basically say, you, what you tell me I am is not who I am.
Dr. Maya M. Faison:You don't get to define me. Right. And so that those moments kind of moved me into the space of working with and advocating for women. I'm working on a project slowly called, I Survived Ed Reform, Lessons in Leadership from Women of Color. Thus, provocative playbook on how to reform every form.
Dr. Maya M. Faison:It's a long title, right? But the purpose of this book was how do I capture the stories and experiences and narratives of women of color in every form? And I'm using that term broadly.
Ron Rapatalo:I capture Especially
Dr. Maya M. Faison:during a time where people are erasing histories and telling folks that things that happened never did. Right? So, you know, so my goal
Ron Rapatalo:I'm reading what I'm reading. It was like, wait, civil rights act did what? Oh, you get the word
Dr. Maya M. Faison:now. Right?
Ron Rapatalo:Fascinating. Yes.
Dr. Maya M. Faison:So, you know, I've been slowly doing the research on that project. Women interview mode, gathering qualitative data and the stories are fascinating. And the goal is to share their stories, but then also to share their insights and recommendations on how do we make it so that the next wave of women of color coming into this sector do not experience what we have experienced.
Ron Rapatalo:Yeah. You read my mind and I'm not surprised you're coming out with a book to really share these stories and come out with some, you know, insights for what the how the system can change. So I'm wondering if you're able to give us a taste of a preview of some of, like, a particular systemic insight that you may not have thought about from your own experience that you were you've been hearing from the women of color and the black woman in particular that you've been interviewing.
Dr. Maya M. Faison:Yeah. There's been a few different themes and through lines. Right? One theme is about have you heard of self sabotage? It was less self sabotage in, several of the women shared about almost like a board sabotage, like folks who had like started organizations and then the board kind of working around them and kicked them out of their own organization.
Dr. Maya M. Faison:Or I felt, I heard a lot of things around the impact of this stress on the women's health. Multiple stories I heard about women, excuse me, who were put into the hospital because of the impact it had on their health or their stress or heart or whatever it was. They were in the hospital and for some the health issues were so extreme, they weren't able to continue in the position. A couple of ladies, they were so impacted by the space. They not only left ed reform, they left the country.
Dr. Maya M. Faison:I interviewed them from like Ghana, at least a couple of ladies live in Ghana now because it's a whole different environment. So a lot of those through lines, the impact of the stressors on physical health, the surprise that your biggest champions were kind of working against you and your board. And I heard a lot of ladies talk about the credit factor. What I mean by that is many of the women talked about how they were like instrumental in like building out this, you know, launching this set of schools or doing this new initiative at this nonprofit or doing this training, whatever it was, they were like the faces for it. They started it, they kicked it off, they made it successful and they were pushed out and never given credit or recognition.
Dr. Maya M. Faison:Now they didn't do it for credit or recognition, but they also didn't do it so they could be erased out of the story.
Ron Rapatalo:Yeah. I think that happens in I mean, my my watch of folks who found, who were nonprofit founders, particularly people of colors, that I think one of the pieces one of my previous podcast guests, I don't know if you know his name, Attenray Elaine. He's he now lives in Poland with his family because his wife is Ukrainian with all the craziness that happened in Ukraine. Right? They they left the country so that he could, like Wow.
Ron Rapatalo:Be close to her family. Right? But one of the things he told me, right, that I think often, like, I think this is a systemic thing, but probably particular with, like, people of color founders is when you found a nonprofit, if you're the founding ED, you know who ultimately owns the rights? It's the board. And so one of the things he's, I think, I don't know if his book has come out yet, but he talked about like writing a book for like nonprofit founders for things he's learned.
Ron Rapatalo:One of the things that he shared on the episode was you gotta protect your intellectual, your IP. So he then formed like a for profit to be able to like hold that IP and selling the IP to his nonprofit and and like licensing it out to other things, right? Because I think that often gets missed because so many of us that do the work, right, you're doing it not for the recognition or the gains, and yet, and I think what's happening in the non profit sector, generally with the conversations I've been having with lots of people around mergers and acquisitions, unfortunately, is what's gonna happen to the orgs that are are being led by people of color particularly, because they're the most vulnerable right now. Right? What happens to the people, them, but the staffing, lots of other people of color, but also what's been held in terms of what their orgs have done.
Ron Rapatalo:Right? And there's an erasure of that that is being happening in this country in real time.
Dr. Maya M. Faison:Absolutely. Absolutely. So yeah, those are a few of the themes that I've seen and there was a lot of thankfulness. If not all of the women said, thank you for getting this project started because we feel like our voices are not heard, They're not valued. They want our work.
Dr. Maya M. Faison:They want our work product. They want our brilliance and they'll use that all day, but they don't value her voice. All right. We're supposed to just kind of set, just do the work and stay quiet. So, many of the women just were thankful that the project was getting started and just very excited to see that, you know, we're having these types of conversations.
Dr. Maya M. Faison:So, yeah, it was, it's been very interesting. And for some, they said it's been very cathartic to have these conversations because some ladies said they have squashed these memories quite dealt with them.
Ron Rapatalo:Yeah.
Dr. Maya M. Faison:Understandably. So a lot of us have work trauma that we've never worked through and we don't even language to work through it.
Ron Rapatalo:Right.
Dr. Maya M. Faison:And so what does that look like? To name the trauma and then to heal from it.
Ron Rapatalo:Yeah. And I think that's something in this space, right, where when you have this trauma that happens, right, there's so many different courses of events that you can shrink. You might even change and be like, well if I'm gonna be pushed back, I'm gonna fight really hard against you, which then has its own repercussions, right? Yeah. And so it's one of those things, and many of the stories that have been shared with me in my coaching practice, even on the many podcast episodes that I've been privileged to have brilliant guests like you, is this is more than just an individual story, I think, as you're seeing your project, there are really systems and cultures at play that just make this the norm.
Ron Rapatalo:Like you and I, I'm sure if we were to talk offline, that the that the women of color, particularly the black women who've gone through this, are are probably people, like, I know. I'm like, oh, I right. It just it is and yet you can't go out there and talk about it because it's would be detrimental to your career. Can't go out there and be like, yo, I got because the power dynamic is real.
Dr. Maya M. Faison:The power dynamic is heavy.
Ron Rapatalo:Yeah.
Dr. Maya M. Faison:And so the project is anonymous. Of the ladies, for it to be anonymous. They say, yes, please make it anonymous because they're afraid and they, they're not bashing people. They're simply sharing what they experienced. But even in that, they're afraid that in sharing their story that people will be, you know, retaliatory.
Dr. Maya M. Faison:But then again, do have a few ladies who are like, you know what, tell them my first and last name, tell them my address and where I live and where I am. Right. Cause they're like, I am not shrinking anymore. I am not hiding this story, but most, for most of the women, they, they are going to be anonymous because we're trying to be protective because they still,
Ron Rapatalo:you
Dr. Maya M. Faison:know, a career to protect Sally and you know, what they don't want to have happened. And then one of these other things that came through was the women of color who did speak up while they were employed at certain organizations ended up being pushed out and then blackballed.
Ron Rapatalo:Oh my God. That is disgustingly Yeah.
Dr. Maya M. Faison:Yeah. And so that was really hard to hear them share those stories, especially they were sure like, I helped do this. I took a pay cut. You know, I wasn't like all these things they sacrifice. Many of the women sacrifice.
Dr. Maya M. Faison:And, Ron, multiple women told me, I said, what's your biggest regret? Many of the women said they held off on even having families getting married and or having kids for the sake of supporting the organizations they work for. So that's why I say my mission today is to help reframe and disrupt how women, in particular women of color, are viewing leadership, successful leadership and what they feel they owe these companies and organizations.
Ron Rapatalo:Yeah.
Dr. Maya M. Faison:Women literally have foregone having babies because they want to make sure they can be the first one at the job and the last one to leave. They want to make sure they're on call, they can talk on Sundays. They want to make sure they can go to all the evening events for the hope that they're having an impact and that they'll get some respect. Yeah. And some of the men are being pushed out anyway.
Ron Rapatalo:Quick pause in the action here. I know a lot of us leaders, entrepreneurs, folks just trying to do good work, and felt that grind of pushing a boulder uphill by ourselves. The learning is you don't actually have to do it all alone. Genius discovery program at thought leader path like having a think tank in your corner. It's not some cookie cutter formula, but your story, your plan of impact, giving you the clarity and assets to take the next big step.
Ron Rapatalo:I've seen people go through this and walk out with their voices amplified and being sharpened. Some even launching podcasts like this one Ronderings. So if you're tired of grinding in the dark and you're ready to step into your impact with right support, check out geniusdiscovery.org. So I'm curious of your thoughts on this Maya, right? Because, you know, in this climate, as we record this in early twenty twenty six, is a very tough job market.
Ron Rapatalo:It's rough. Yeah. Right? So, you know, I think a term that I saw in the Wall Street Journal was something about job hugging, you know, people holding on. It's kind of like a derivative of quiet quitting at some degree, right?
Ron Rapatalo:You know, people holding because it's like, I got nowhere else to go, and like, don't really wanna be here, but I've got to because I gotta pay bills, right?
Dr. Maya M. Faison:That is what it is, yeah.
Ron Rapatalo:Right? And then at the other end of it, right, try to start your own business or consult, also, which you and I could probably have a whole episode on, right? Because I've had a side, And so, when I see the extremes of this, right, I'm wondering what advice you have, because I think certainly you going out there, and it sounds like you're thriving from what I'm, maybe there's some nuance there, right? Consulting and coaching. So it's a two part for anyone who wants to like find a job in this market, considering, and this is particularly focused on women of color and black women.
Dr. Maya M. Faison:Yeah.
Ron Rapatalo:What's the criteria they should be looking for, because I'm gonna say, God forbid, no don't forgive me for this, because this is my podcast, right? Oftentimes, I'm gonna say this publicly, because I believe it, right? It is hard for me, I would never say never as my asterisk, but a lot of the entities that I have been, that I have brought in, or that I've led job searches for, I probably wouldn't wanna work at. It's only because of like, some of it is the way that I like to work, but I think a lot of the places, I think it's becomes my as you know. Once you know how things really operate, go, nah, I'm not no.
Ron Rapatalo:Because once you know, and I tend to carry a lot of the info I'm showing to you, I'm like, I couldn't, like, I'd need certain parameters that I think most full time job places in our ecosystem just frankly don't allow for?
Dr. Maya M. Faison:Yeah. Well.
Ron Rapatalo:Provocative question, I know.
Dr. Maya M. Faison:You know what? It's important though, right? It's an important one because you know, I, I had just made a, well, maybe a few, maybe a couple months or so back, I actually did a love letter. I call it a love letter to the 300,000 plus black women who have lost their jobs over the past year, right? Because we're just disproportionately being impacted by all these layoffs.
Dr. Maya M. Faison:Then if you do leave, now you're trying to find a new job and some people are looking at you as you're going to be a diversity hire. So some people are even afraid to even hire black women because they think though people will assume they hired them because they're black versus they're brilliant and they're more than qualified. Right. And so I wrote this letter to them and kind of posted up on LinkedIn and have a couple of insights I'll call them, right? Because you say you're hugging on to the job, you don't want to be here and or you've left the job or you've been put out with the job, right?
Dr. Maya M. Faison:And so one thing that I was encouraging them to do was to accept the grief of what's happening, whether you're still hugging on to that job or you've been let Accept the grief, but then channel the fire and let's move. A lot of people start looking at their resume, which is important but I encourage you to start auditing your network because if you have the right network, especially you're seeking out, there's networks of black female entrepreneurs, there's industry specific groups for folks of color, there's folks who want to be supportive and you may have been overlooking them with tunnel vision in your previous position. The other thing I'm encouraging the ladies to do is to redefine right fit now and make sure it is aligned with your values.
Ron Rapatalo:Yeah. That's a big one.
Dr. Maya M. Faison:You want to find out are my values represented, not just in my conversation with the recruiter, but are my values represented in the policies? Is it represented in how they show up publicly? You know, look for their public statements. Have they made public statements about certain things that are in their purview or have they kept quiet? So look for certain parameters like that.
Dr. Maya M. Faison:You know, I know when I left out of my previous role as a CEO over the policy nonprofit, I remember some recruiters calling me and asking me, you know, what, what kind of thing would you want to do next? We've got a couple of things in mind for you. And I said, I am uninterested in being in a position where I have to shrink back what my values are. I want to be able to speak boldly around the need to support black and brown children, black and brown adults. I don't want to have to be censored in that way.
Dr. Maya M. Faison:And there was some censorship in previous jobs because of the politics, because of the funding, because of the policies. And so we couldn't always say what needed to be said. And so I would tell the recruiters, you know, I've redefined what right fit means to me right now. It's not about, is it the highest title? Am I the CEO and how much is those things are important?
Dr. Maya M. Faison:Those are my criteria in the past as a younger professional, a more seasoned professional.
Ron Rapatalo:Yeah.
Dr. Maya M. Faison:No, I am not intending to work with anyone or any organization where I have to compromise my values. And I translate that over to clients I work with right now too. So I would encourage folks that are hugging or leaving to do some evaluating, to start thinking through their network, start thinking through what is right fit and what are their values, what their non negotiables are. I also am going to encourage women to keep on hugging to that job, but if you know you've been sitting on something, you know, you know, many of us have been sitting on this idea, this initiative, this whatever, and we have felt too scared to try it, to launch it. I am telling folks this is a time to try it and I keep hugging because you need that steady paycheck for right now, but you can use some of your other time to pilot this idea, to get some feedback on this idea, to test it out, fail real quick, and then try it again and do a new iteration.
Dr. Maya M. Faison:Like this is the time to reimagine what's possible with courage and not put all your eggs in your employer's basket, moving forward because we see that I tell people all time, these jobs do not love you back. You give everything to these jobs and they will get rid of you in a heartbeat. You are replaceable.
Ron Rapatalo:That is the harsh reality. I think the advice I've often given is you have to be your own free agent at all times. You do. I mean, it doesn't mean that you can't have some level of loyalty. But if you don't look out for yourself, I mean, your employer ultimately is not obliged to look out for you.
Ron Rapatalo:Sometimes they do, but I think oftentimes it's the latter.
Dr. Maya M. Faison:No, you're replaceable. It's sad to say and no way I'll think no, they couldn't know. You are replaceable. And you know, I tell folks all the time, you, you stress yourself out, on your computer at midnight, you taking your laptop on the beach when you own PTO, you know, you are all kinds of, you're neglecting your family, you're neglecting your friends, all the things. Let's say you die of a heart attack, stress, they will, your job may send flowers to your family and then they're going to post your job on LinkedIn.
Dr. Maya M. Faison:They're going to move on. You are replaceable as my point. And so how do you redefine and reimagine what it means to be successful at work, but also to be successful personally, to actually have a life that feels good and that does look good on your LinkedIn resume. Right. And so those are the things I'm trying to work towards, but it's hard, you know, you, you know, you you're hugging onto these jobs and rightly so as hard out here to get a job at the same level of salary, the same, whatever it is hard, you know, if you do decide to leave the last piece of advice I'd give to these women, you do decide to leave.
Dr. Maya M. Faison:I would encourage you to negotiate your next move out of a spirit of abundance and not from desperation. When we are feeling like I don't have anywhere else to go, I really need to get out of here. We start operating in desperation. We start taking things we shouldn't take. We started taking less money as if these folks are doing us a favor by hiring us.
Dr. Maya M. Faison:When we know when we get there, we're going to be doing all the things and we're going to be excelling and we're going to make them 10 times better. But when we operate in desperation, it's like, you're, you're just happy somebody gave you something. I'd encourage us not to operate, operate from a state of abundance, from a state of worthiness, understand your worth and what you bring, and understand what your values are and what your non negotiables are.
Ron Rapatalo:Amen to that wisdom, Maya. So that is a a perfect entree into the Ronderings question. So what's your Ronderings today? What lesson or value you'd like to share with the audience?
Dr. Maya M. Faison:Oh, some of it I kind of shared, but essentially the lesson is that you are worthy despite what the world around you might be telling you right now, despite what your colleagues might tell you, what you're bored, what the media, you are worthy of success but not just success at work, you are worthy of a successful personal life, spiritual life, emotional life. You do not owe your job every minute of your life. They don't pay for that and even if they did it wouldn't be a healthy thing to do. You do not owe them any of that. You owe them excellence because that's how you do.
Dr. Maya M. Faison:That's just what we do, but you don't owe them your soul. You don't owe them every month. And so I encourage folks listening and in particular, my women of color who are in these spaces to just stop and think about what does success really mean right now? And what does it really mean to leave well? Because it's not what we've been taught.
Ron Rapatalo:Now, I think there are models we are teaching ourselves in real time about what that looks like because I think the model's often been lead to exhaustion, lead to the sacrifice of everything. I'm not saying you don't sacrifice, there's a there's a nuance here.
Dr. Maya M. Faison:Yeah.
Ron Rapatalo:Right? You I think excellence requires sacrifice to be clear. Let let's be clear about that.
Dr. Maya M. Faison:Mhmm.
Ron Rapatalo:But at what cost? And I think for me, there's a consciousness of at what cost that I people have to talk about. People make individual decisions. I'm not one that be in someone's head of the family and be like, you're not sacrificing, right? But I think there's this balance between, I I watch the extremes in our space, and that's what throws me off, right?
Ron Rapatalo:I think generally my default is people want to work hard. Yeah. It's just that it becomes to the point of such, because at some level it's a dopamine effect, I might say from a neuroscience perspective, When you're putting that much, it can feel addictive at some level, right? And so I think the checking of our own ego around that stuff is also really important, right? Because that level of like, are you sacrificing because you're really sacrificing?
Ron Rapatalo:Are you sacrificing because you're not willing to look at your own identity and say, I'm not really living my worth by doing this. I'm sort of living in other people's expectations in that mind, right? Those are the harder things for us to look in the mirror at. I think that it's a very uncomfortable thing that a lot of us have like, damn, I'm doing this. It's not really because like, I'm like Dr.
Ron Rapatalo:King or credits that I'm doing this because I'm holding on to something that, you know, I
Dr. Maya M. Faison:That's don't right. That's And
Ron Rapatalo:that's a scary thing to tell yourself.
Dr. Maya M. Faison:It's because we have been trained to connect our productivity with our worth and our identity. So that's why
Ron Rapatalo:we've The most been capitalistic thing ever. Yeah.
Dr. Maya M. Faison:Yeah. The shirt says healing over hustle. Right? Because we've trained ourselves that we have to be working in exhaustion. We have to be on twenty four seven.
Dr. Maya M. Faison:Our calendars have to be booked. You know, we have to be busy. We have to be all on all the time because if we're not, then who are we? Right. And so to, to what we've been indoctrinated to believe is that if we got a busy calendar and we're busy and exhausted, we must be doing well and we must be important and needed.
Dr. Maya M. Faison:So that is a mind piece that we've got to pivot, right? Like you, you don't have to tie or you should not tie your productivity to your identity and your worth. And the big thing there is yes, there's a need for sacrifice when you work in excellence, but it can't be toxic. And the way you avoid it being toxic is you set boundaries. I work with a lot of my ladies that I coach and the teams that I coach on how did you set healthy boundaries so you can still operate in excellence.
Dr. Maya M. Faison:You can learn how to prioritize when you need to sacrifice certain things, but it's not to the level of toxicity and it's not to level where you are again sacrificing who you really are.
Ron Rapatalo:I love that.
Dr. Maya M. Faison:And so those things are pretty critical. We're not usually taught to, to set boundaries. We're taught to be reasonable, be amenable, be flexible, don't complain, do whatever needs to get done. And that's just not sustainable and it's not fair. So, you know, and I'm thinking about what is the return on investment also, can you give it what happens?
Dr. Maya M. Faison:You give everything to the job what's left.
Ron Rapatalo:Well, with all of this wisdom and vulnerability you shared, how do people find you and what would you like to promote?
Dr. Maya M. Faison:Alright, excellent. You can find me on Instagram at MayaB Faison. You can find me on LinkedIn, Dr. Maya M Faison. I've got lots of names.
Dr. Maya M. Faison:On LinkedIn, I really encourage you to join my newsletter. It's called Lead Grow Take Up Space. And every week I send out insights about how do we disrupt our understanding of what it is to be a good leader. And I look at it particularly through the lens of being a woman in leadership and many times I'm looking at it as a woman of color in leadership and really helping women to unlearn what we've been taught and what we've internalized. I encourage you to find me there.
Dr. Maya M. Faison:I also do one on one and group coaching through a model that I've created called unmuted. The unmuted experience is about helping women to reclaim their voices, helping them to stop shrinking and playing small, right? They've been sitting on ideas, they're afraid to launch them. They sit in that conference room, they never open their mouth with the big idea and the best idea that they have to keep it inside. They're not setting boundaries and letting people walk all over them.
Dr. Maya M. Faison:All the things that manifest when you stay muted. The program is called unmuted. So we can disrupt that. And so I encourage folks to check that out. We have a cohort that's closing up in about a week or so towards the January, but we'll likely do a spring cohort as well.
Dr. Maya M. Faison:The one on one coaching happens year round. You can reach out to me, book a discovery call. And finally, I would like to share, I have written devotionals. I talk a lot about healing over hustle and just taking care of yourself. And so the daily devotional, it's a twenty one day devotional called worthy of wholeness.
Dr. Maya M. Faison:And so for my folks who are led spirit led and God led it is a devotional that has scripture as reflections. It has room for you to grow and thrive and it's over twenty one days. I encourage you to check it out. You can find it on my website, mayafaison.com.
Ron Rapatalo:I'm definitely gonna check that out. I'm gonna have my missus and I like check that out. We are, We go to an Episcopal church here in Jersey City and so my missus is on the vestry and she's, we love that kind of devotional stuff because it's one to put that in.
Dr. Maya M. Faison:It's very accessible, It's not like super churchy or judgy it's accessible. And it talks about how do you, when you're seeking wholeness, even while you're healing. And that's the whole message there. You are worthy. You are able to find success.
Dr. Maya M. Faison:You can walk in your purpose all while you are healing. You do not have to be fully healed in order to walk in purpose. So it talks us through that and it's very real. It's very accessible, very relatable over twenty one days. And so check it out and let me know what you think.
Dr. Maya M. Faison:So those are the things I would flag for you. I am not on Tik TOK.
Ron Rapatalo:Neither. I have an account, but I don't play with you. I'm like, found
Dr. Maya M. Faison:out one of my twenty twenty six goals is to check it out. My kids keep telling me you got to get on TikToks. Like you can't find me there just yet, but give me probably two months on my quarter one goal. And I think I'll be getting on there, but for now, check me out on Instagram, on LinkedIn, the newsletter lead girl take up space. Check me out on my website for info on all the different programs and coaching opportunities.
Dr. Maya M. Faison:And if you are a business and you are looking for support on strategic planning, that's my jam. I know that sounds weird, but I love strategic planning and I've worked with dozens and dozens of companies and organizations across the country and help them to fulfill their goals. So all those ways you can reach out to me, I look forward to hearing from everybody.
Ron Rapatalo:Well, I leave our audience with this. In the words of one of my favorite sports heroes of all time, Dion Sanders, we always come in hot with amazing guests like Maya, Peace y'all. As we close, I keep coming back to something Maya said. If this initiative failed, that doesn't mean I'm a failure. That distinction matters.
Ron Rapatalo:So many leaders, especially women of color, have taught to internalize systemic harm as personal inadequacy. This conversation reminds us that survival itself is data. That burnout, silence, and exit are often rational responses to broken systems, not individual weakness. Maya's work now centers on helping leaders unmute themselves, stop shrinking, and lead from wholeness, not sacrifice. This episode stirs something in you, I invite you to sit with it.
Ron Rapatalo:Journal. Share it. Send it to someone who needs permission to take up space again. You can learn more about Maya's coaching, newsletter Lead, Grow, Take Up Space, and her work through mayabfaison.com, and follow her at Maya B Faison on Instagram. And as always, thank you for listening, reflecting, and Ronderings with me.
Ron Rapatalo:Until next time. Peace. Before we wrap, I've gotta give a huge shout out to the crew that helps make renderings come alive every week, podcasts that matter. Their mission, simple but powerful. Every great idea deserves a voice.
Ron Rapatalo:So if you've been sitting on that spark of a show or story, don't overthink it. Just start. Head to podcastsmatter.com, and let their team bring your vision to life. Till next time. Keep pondering.
Ron Rapatalo:Keep growing. Keep sharing your voice with the world. Peace. Thank you for listening to today's Ronderings. I enjoyed hanging out with me and my guests, and I hope you leave with something worth chewing on.
Ron Rapatalo:If it made you smile, think, or even roll your eyes in a good way, pass it along to someone else. I'm Ron Rapatalo, and until next time, keep rondering, keep laughing, and keep becoming.
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