Ron Rapatalo: What's up? I'm Ron Rapatalo, and this is the Ronderings podcast. Around here, I sit down with guests for real, unpolished conversations about the lessons and values that shaped them. And I'll be right there with you, sharing my own take, laughing at myself when I need to, and wondering out loud about this messy thing called life. Glad you pulled up a chair. Let's get into it. Welcome back to Ronderings, the podcast where we explore the moments, mindsets, and messy realities that shape leadership. Today's guest is Alex Cantu, chief operating officer at the Surge Institute, an organization developing leaders of color for transforming education. Alex and I first met over what turned into a two hour lunch at the Education Leaders of Color convening. The few minutes I knew I wanted to have him on the show, I didn't expect was how much of our conversation was centered on soccer referee.

Ron Rapatalo: Turns out that managing conflict on the soccer field has a lot to teach us about leading organizations through uncertainty. We talk about staying calm under pressure, making decisions with imperfect information, why storytelling may be the most underrated leadership skill, and what nonprofit leaders need to be thinking about is fun thing. Talent continue to reshape our sector. Whether you're COO, CEO, school year, just someone trying to lead well in certain times, think you'll find yourself taking notes during this one.

Ron Rapatalo: The Lavics cut. Ronderings universe. So a couple of months ago before the recording of this episode, because it's mid July, I had the pleasure to meet my guest over lunch at the Education Leaders of Color convening. Now unlike that lunch, there were a couple people there. Shout out TSJ and Dominique in New Orleans. They will not be on the podcast. Hopefully, they'll be Ronderings podcast guests one of these days. But I have the pleasure of having Alex Cantu on the mic.

Ron Rapatalo: Alex, how are you doing, brother?

Alex Cantu: I'm doing great, Ron. How are you?

Ron Rapatalo: You know, at the time of this recording, it rained a lot. It's two months before I become a dad again with a third baby boy. And so, you know, a lot going on, but, you know, slowly an hour at a time Yeah. These days. So... But That's a busy life.

Alex Cantu: That's a busy life, Ron.

Ron Rapatalo: Yeah. It is. But, you know, gotta embrace it, you know, and take... And find the joy in the moments that are... Don't always feel like you can find joy. There's always joy somewhere. Yeah. So, Alex, why don't we get right to it, brother? What's your story?

Alex Cantu: Yeah. Well, Ron, thanks for having me. Excited to chat with you. I had a great lunch with you at the EdLoC conference. I mean, it was it was a great conference. Cool experience. It was Yeah. Definitely felt like home for for all the people that went. And Amen. Got to meet you.

Ron Rapatalo: I know. And it was a nice two hour lunch. You know? Sometimes those lunches and the conversation was like, shouldn't we be in session? Sorry, Ronder.

Alex Cantu: Yeah. My bad.

Ron Rapatalo: My bad. Oops.

Alex Cantu: But we're building community, and that is the goal.

Ron Rapatalo: It it is. It is.

Alex Cantu: Well, yeah, I'm happy to tell you, about my story. Please. You know, I think first and foremost, like, I'm a kid from San Antonio, Texas. You know, I was born there, raised there. I don't live there now. Okay. But, you know, my parents are from there also. We're South Texas folks for sure. You know, my parents really believed in the power of education. You know, their hope for me was that I would be able to have a great education and finish college.

Alex Cantu: Like, they did not have the opportunity to finish. Okay. Their college education, they were proud alums of the Edgewood and San Antonio ISDs but college was not in their future. So they they wanted to be for me. So, you know, I like to tell my story in like three decisions that probably shaped my life.

Alex Cantu: You know, first decision is my parents, you know, prioritizing education. So they worked really hard so that I could start strong with high quality early childhood education. So high quality preschool, name the game. Yeah. Start strong. Do those things. And then they also worked really hard to make sure that I had a really strong k 12 experience. You know? Having a strong k 12 experience is often about building community. In Texas, it is also like, where do you live?

Alex Cantu: All those Lots different of factors that they wanted to make sure that I had a great opportunity. And then ultimately, they got me to and through college. And that was So big decision number one for them. I'd say the second decision that really shaped my life was my job that I had in high school. Okay. So I decided... You know, a lot of kids do lots of different things when they're in high school. I decided I wanted to referee soccer. And, you know, it was cash when you're in high school. Like, cash is where it's at.

Ron Rapatalo: Yes. Then you don't have to pay tax?

Alex Cantu: There's no taxes. Right? No. Ten ninety. You know what a ten ninety nine is. Right? But Yep. Mhmm. They exist. And, you know, it taught me a lot. For I think, it was one of those formative experiences. I didn't know all that I was signing up for. I thought it was just, you know, gonna learn how to do this, make some money, but I have been refereeing now for twenty three years. I still referee on Sundays and sometimes for high school soccer as well.

Alex Cantu: But, you know, it took me all over the country. You know? And for a kid from San Antonio who, like, never left the city Yeah. I got to travel the country, refereeing soccer, and that was a lot of fun. And I met some incredible people along the way. Yeah. Wow.

Ron Rapatalo: Did you get to meet anybody during your soccer refereeing that ended up playing, like, you know, abroad or, yeah. I'm sure tons. Right? You must have all kinds of stories about Tons. Tons. You know, when folks are, like, in the making, you were like, oh my god. I'm refereeing this game with these folks.

Alex Cantu: Oh my gosh. If yes... No one, like, super, super famous. Like, I think it a referee like Lionel Messi or something like that. Right? If you you had been in

Ron Rapatalo: Argentina, Barcelona, I was like, what? Referee there? Oh my god. Would have been a dream.

Alex Cantu: No. I mean, I think some of my favorite stories with players and being in that community is like Yeah. Refereed them when they were in college. Mhmm. And, you know, and then I was refereeing, like, semi professional soccer. They were playing on those semi professional teams. They've been around. Now they're coaches. I'm referring the games that they coach. They play over 40 on Sundays. I referee them at over 40. So, like, the players you referee with and you get mixed up with, they follow you for sure.

Ron Rapatalo: Ah. So you've built these, like, really deep relation... Like, folks have seen... Like, you've all come up together.

Alex Cantu: Oh, I mean, refereeing in soccer, most sport is relational. You know? I think about, you know, there's some high school coaches here in the Austin area. I have been refereeing these coaches for twenty plus years. Like, they've been at their high school for twenty years. I have been refereeing their soccer games for twenty years Yeah. Which is a really long time to be in this, like, coach relationship dynamic Yeah. For sure.

Ron Rapatalo: How would you qualify your refereeing style? I'm trying to remember if I asked you that during lunch, but I'm curious for the audience. Right? Because, you know, people have a style. Right? If I think about, you know Okay. Across sports, you know, like, you know, the famous baseball umpires whose names I'm not remembering. I remember last name West. You know? I don't remember basketball referees off the top of my head except for Donaghy.

Ron Rapatalo: That's not a good situation because he was in a cheating scandal. Right? Foot referees, you know, some of them had, like, you know, kind of certain, like, ways of, like, showing first downs and stuff, but I don't remember names. Right? You know, referees tend to be kind of, like, a little bit behind the scenes. It's like, you don't know their names. That tends to be a good thing, but nonetheless, your refereeing style.

Alex Cantu: Yeah. I think I... You know, we are a product just like anything else. We're a product of who is teaching you how to do a thing. Yeah. My most formative teacher was actually my high school cross country coach. Someone I'm so friends with. He was a referee in Major League Soccer. Alright. Cool. Okay. And he taught me all the things about refereeing. His style is, you know, very boisterous. He's very funny. He can calm anyone down with a joke.

Alex Cantu: Yeah. I am not as funny as him. However Yeah. I did learn a lot from him about being relational. So my style is I'm not much... Some yell, some referees are very dramatic with their hand gestures.

Ron Rapatalo: And I know. That works.

Alex Cantu: That that works for folks. That's not my style. I'm very Very calm. Like, if, you know, if there's a coach who's yelling and screaming on the top of their head, you know, I'll stop the game, and I will just, like, calmly walk over. And I find, like, the distance between me walking over Yeah. Gives them a little bit of time to relax. But... And then we have a conversation. I know now, you know, if I'm... Especially with, you know, actually, levels of soccer.

Alex Cantu: Sometimes I'll just call a player over, and the first thing I'll say with them is, let's just stand here and take two breaths.

Alex Cantu: And then let's talk. So my style can be very relational in that way. Less pointing, for sure.

Ron Rapatalo: What your style... How would those over 40 players that you refereed during college, would they say the same thing about your refereeing style? Do you think they would say anything a little bit different?

Alex Cantu: I think they would they would definitely consider me the calmer of the referees. I think they... You know, people have this idea that you're not supposed to notice the referee. Yeah. Which is kinda nonsense. You notice the referee in the same way that you notice any leader. Right. How can you not? But I think what players would say about me the most, like coaches that I've known for a long time is they know that we're not gonna agree on every decision. Like, we're just not.

Alex Cantu: But I think over the years and, like, refereeing the same people for so many years, being part of a community here in Austin, like, I think people trust me when they see me come to their games. They know I'm not gonna be perfect, but they know I'm gonna work really hard. And they know that they can trust me to do a good job. Yeah. It won't go perfect, but there's a base foundation of trust there.

Ron Rapatalo: Yeah. How do you handle missing calls?

Alex Cantu: That's a great question.

Ron Rapatalo: A great... I mean, you don't ask that one, like... Because, you know, see some referee, there's there's styles there too. And so I would imagine your calm style plays a real key in terms of, like, when you miss a call and someone comes up to you, they're blowing their stack. Like, you know, do you handle that?

Alex Cantu: You know, it's not... I think in a lot of ways, refereeing prepared me for life in so many so many ways. I think Yeah. You know, referees miss calls. They just do. You could I think Right. What I've learned over the years is to put those decisions into perspective. You know? If I miss a direction on a throw in or, like, a simple foul in the middle of the field, you know Yeah. It happens. And it... But it probably doesn't impact the game, which is where I think people get really upset when you miss a throw in. Folks who are in the mix, like, you know, like, one throw in, one way or the other, probably does not impact the game. It can, for sure. There's no question.

Alex Cantu: You wanna be right as often as possible, but it probably doesn't matter that much. Yeah. Mhmm. And so I... I've trained myself to... That happened, and I move on. If I need to, you know, talk to someone about it, one of the players who trusts me, I'll say, like, yeah. I think I probably missed that. Thankfully, nothing happened. You know, I always say to the players sometimes, like, the ball never lies because the world works out that way where you miss a call and the ball will change direction immediately anyway.

Alex Cantu: Yeah. And that's fine. It's the big ones. You know, honestly, they stay with me. I can still remember some of the, like, big decisions.

Ron Rapatalo: Oh, I'm sure. Yeah. I think about big decisions that get made on the pitch. Right? It's the, oh, you're calling a penalty kick. Right? Yeah. You've put in a yellow card, maybe a red card. I'm sure you've had to in the course of your... I mean, you're refereeing twenty years. This... That's happened a number of times. Right? And it's just, like, those are the kinds of... Changed the course of the game.

Ron Rapatalo: Right?

Alex Cantu: Yeah. And they stick with you. And then, you know, there's some that I that I still remember. They take a while to get over, but, honestly, I just attribute that to caring. Like, I still show up to the same fields that I've made mistakes on, and you have to just move on. You have to learn from it and keep at it.

Ron Rapatalo: So I'm gonna do my usual tie in. Right? The reason I wanted to spend so much time, and thank you for saying that this is, like, the, like, second big decision. We'll get to the third big decision in a moment, but I wanna tie your soccer refereeing to being now fast... We're gonna fast forward now and get to the day. Being a chief operating officer at Surge... The Surge Institute. Shout out to Surge family. I've had past Surge folks like Nick Freeman, and I'm sure I've had others on the podcast. Certainly know a lot of y'all in terms of the Surge fam.

Ron Rapatalo: So I'm curious in that COO role, how would you say your leadership style as a chief operating officer was informed by your twenty plus years as soccer referee?

Alex Cantu: Yeah. I mean, I think the the two biggest skills that I think you take from the soccer field Yeah. But then just apply to being a leader in this moment Mhmm. Is calm nerves, like strong ground, calm nerves, not getting frazzled by decisions. I think that's really, really important. I mean, we are in an unprecedented moment for the nonprofit sector, for the education sector. Are

Ron Rapatalo: are... I'm sure that's what y'all were talking about when you were in Chicago last week. Of course.

Alex Cantu: Of course. You're not right? The Surge executive team just came from our quarterly huddle that we get together, build relationships, and we talk about the big questions. And they're about the market and priorities and where funding is headed and how do we serve leaders who need us now more than ever. Those are big things. And, you know, learning how to stay calm in that is important so you make good decisions. And then I think the other thing that, you know, ties more directly to my role as chief operating officer is connecting dots. How does this decision you make impact the next decision? You know, I always...

Alex Cantu: When I... There was a time I spent a lot of time coaching and teaching referees. And I would always tell them, if you wanna know if your decision was right or wrong, just give it about thirty seconds and see what happens. If the game gets worse in terms of behavior or, you know, there's always cause and effect, you're gonna know if you're right or wrong.

Alex Cantu: And leadership is similar. Like, you're trying to make good decisions, but you're connecting dots. And you'll know, am I making good decisions or not because you're observing all the pieces of your job? Does how does finance interact with HR? How does this decision impact your employee satisfaction survey?

Ron Rapatalo: Yeah. That makes a lot of sense, right? Because a lot of it... The connecting dots piece is not something that I thought about, but it makes a lot of sense in a spectrum of refereeing and, of course, of senior leadership, and particularly the role that you have. Right? You have to see the... Part of, like, making a decision is thinking to the cascading effect and a prediction of, like, how that may play out. Right? You can't be perfect about it, but, like, you're hoping, like, I make this big decision. This is how we think it's gonna play out and, like, cascade with these other things.

Ron Rapatalo: So that makes a lot of sense.

Alex Cantu: Yeah. And I also think it's about, you know, in... Making decisions within perfect data is also part of it. I think there is Is it that refereeing at its

Ron Rapatalo: core unless you are an owl and can, like, three sixty and see everything and have the technology? Like, you know, it's funny when I was thinking soccer soccer refereeing, and I'm sure you've been watching the World Cup like I have.

Alex Cantu: Of course.

Ron Rapatalo: The off sides decisions, I'm like, the technology is... I'm like, wait. They... So I had the third... A one thirty second of my elbow over the line. I'm all... I was like, what?

Alex Cantu: Oh, yeah. God.

Ron Rapatalo: It's crazy what they could... Because eye test? How would you know that? But now with the technology, I'm just like, oh,

Alex Cantu: wow. Yeah. It But at your local park on a Sunday morning or at your high school soccer... The referees don't have that. Like No. Of course not. Training. You're you're doing the best that you can. Yeah. But, you know, nonprofits right now are placing big bets. And so Mhmm. What is this program that we launched today? How does that create impact in three years? You know, that's about... And I'm making it based on experience and listening to communities and doing all the things I should be doing, but I won't know for two or three years that this is actually gonna work.

Alex Cantu: And so you're making this big decision based on a lot of things, but at the end of the day, there's a little bit of gut in there, and referees sometimes work on a little bit of gut.

Ron Rapatalo: I mean, you have to. I mean... And I think it's the same with leadership. Right? You're using a little bit of, like, historical pattern recognition to inform what you're gonna do. Mhmm. Right. I wanna point to something. You had on LinkedIn... I lied a little bit because I didn't... Done no background research. Right? Because I always do a slight bit whatever comes in my LinkedIn news feed. And you direct the post based on, I think, something that... Was it Bridgespan posted something about being a generalist, and you tied it to, like, how much it informed you being a chief operating officer.

Ron Rapatalo: And I want you to talk about that Yeah. On this recording. Right? Because I'd love to have people informed about, because I thought what you wrote was particularly salient. So I wanna elevate that here.

Alex Cantu: Yeah. Thank you. Thank you for reading that post. Yeah. You know, it was a really cool article by the folks over at Bridgespan, you know, talking about... They knew a lot about nonprofit chief operating officers lately, which is... Says something about where my job is headed for sure. Mhmm. But this one was about being a generalist. And, you know, not... You know, just telling a little bit about my story, you know, just speaks to me a ton. I studied marketing and management in school. And I was I think one of the hard parts about being a first gen college grad is, like

Alex Cantu: I don't have a, you know, map of what I'm supposed to be studying or what that's gonna do. Like, you have all the things, but university is much different from high school. So Yes. I studied something broad in general. And now my career... Big chunks of my career were in finance, which is not marketing or management. No. But I learned quickly how to connect these dots and be more of a generalist. Like, I'm not a certified public accountant. Yeah.

Alex Cantu: Have people ask me if I'm a CPA before? Absolutely. I did not go to law school. Yeah. Have lawyers asked me before, like, did you go to... Are you a lawyer? Like, no. I just... I know all about the things I'm supposed to know to connect the pieces to be a good chief operating officer. So, you know, I've had the the joy and privilege in my career of getting a lot of reps in a lot of different things, good budgets, challenging budgets, you know, good legal work, you know, challenging legal work, you know, building a great culture, you know, helping repair pieces of a culture.

Alex Cantu: You do all of it, and I think that's what really creates this generalist when you're looking for chief operating officers, especially as we're looking to, you know, kinda rethink leadership a little bit. I don't know that we're quite at a place where every organization is gonna have a chief financial officer, chief technology officer, chief people and culture officer. Yeah. Like, some of these are sitting within a COO again.

Ron Rapatalo: Correct. Especially with the way that the market is moving around budgets. Right? You can't... I... Unless you... Even if you are a big organization, I mean big, like, let's go above $10,000,000 in budget. Right? Yeah. Even 20. Right? Is it necessary to have all those roles? Right? And I think, you know, COOs, I think, a little bit more certainly have taken some of the financial leadership into their purview.

Ron Rapatalo: Right? But even the people aspect. Right? I've seen enough orgs like Take That. So it's not uncommon, like, I think being that generalist in that COO spot is becoming advantageous because of what's happening in the market right now and senior leadership having to make decisions on who owns what. We cannot spend, you know, and have two slots anywhere between 150, 200,000 leading the people function and the finance function separately.

Ron Rapatalo: It's like, well, Alex, actually, you're gonna leave these things now. You know, you know, it's interesting. I I was thinking about this. I had a past guest who's the chief operating officer of Indianapolis Public Schools, and I wanted to get your opinion on something he said, right, which I think very much hits to being the generalist. He talked about his role in the school district as being a translator.

Ron Rapatalo: So what's interesting about his experience is that he was an instructional leader throughout most of his career. He went through TFA, new leaders, successful principal, and him being in his role, right, especially in talking to, like, you know, the folks on the very deep operational side of running a school district, right, the bus drivers and all the things in maintenance, right, and having to translate what they're needing to what he understands, like, the instructional side and the school side needs to run schools, right, and making sure those things meet. And I imagine being a generalist comes in really handy in that regard because, you know, just enough to be able to connect those dots, you said. So I wanted to get I wanted to get your your take on that.

Alex Cantu: Yeah. I mean, I would agree with my colleague. I think I orient to it a little bit differently, but I think the spirit is there.

Alex Cantu: You know, my friends will ask me, and actually, my my husband and I just did this with our friends where we had the Yeah. We had the PowerPoint night. You go and you explain to your friends what you do for a living.

Ron Rapatalo: I was like, wait. Time out. If that is not the most COO thing to do to host a PowerPoint night, holy shit. I... That's awesome.

Alex Cantu: Oh, yeah. We did it. Anyway, I've seen that on the Internet for sure. Yeah. Yeah. You have a PowerPoint now. Explain your job. Ours was a twist. You had to come and explain your spouse's job. So my husband actually explained my job. Okay. And he talked about it in terms of... And I've been using this for a while. I essentially communicate for a living. I do a lot of things, but if I had to really boil down what I do as a COO.

Alex Cantu: I spend the most of my time communicating. Delivering feedback, painting a vision, setting expectations, doing some coaching, all of those things and using those things to connect dots. And and to do all of those things, I also need to be a generalist. I need to know about all pieces of the organization. Maybe I'm not, you know, a a subject matter expert in research and evaluation, but I talk the language because I'm gonna communicate and connect to that meeting and connect it with the next meeting that I go to.

Ron Rapatalo: Yeah. That that idea of, like, being an effective communicator resonates deeply with me in terms of, like, my own leadership. You know, I'm a I'm a sales leader. Admittedly, one of the reasons I reached out to you is like, well, part of the archetype of person that I'm trying to sell to in the social impact space is a COO, right? And so going Surge family, I was like, Alex, I I think I'd just hit you up on LinkedIn.

Ron Rapatalo: I was just like, hey. Are you gonna be at EdLoC? And you were like, yeah. Let's go meet up. Right? Because, you know, I think... What I love about that is, like, two friendly people. It's just like you never know how the synergy is gonna hit off and, like, you make it happen. Right? But I'm not a content expert in instruction by any stretch of the imagination. I have to know enough about it when people are talking about some of those things, especially if you're looking for a chief academic officer or a principal or chief schools officer. Right?

Ron Rapatalo: I I don't know finance, but I'm dangerous enough to, like, have enough pieces to know what should show up in a job description for that. Right? And how to screen for it. Right? And so I've learned through the nature of my role being in talent acquisition for so long and having hired for god knows how many kinds of roles and now selling services of search and consulting that it's really also upped my own, like, kind of being a generalist in this space. Right? I don't have... I don't like to enter the space being like I'm an expert in anything other than being really curious in getting to answers and getting to keep them mobilized.

Ron Rapatalo: Right? That's what I'm good at. Right? So, you know, it's just about how, like, to see how all these styles... Like, you know, people might not say, like, a chief operating officer is super relationship based? What? I'm like, well, no. That would make a lot of sense in your role because if you're not, it's not just about x's and o's, just like referee. It's not just about the rules. It's about the nuance and explaining it to people.

Ron Rapatalo: Let's get back to that third big decision point in your life because we spent, like, second. I went down the rabbit because I said soccer refereeing and part... Like, so folks know in the, quote, unquote, green room conversation we had before the recording, I was like, we'll see how it comes up. The fact you named it second, I was like, oh, we got a lot to talk about now. Hold on. So let's get back to that third inflection point and decision point for you, Alex, in your life.

Alex Cantu: Yeah. Absolutely. So I think the third third biggest decision is, you know, how... Is my first job for sure. Okay. Okay. So I graduated at the tail end of the great recession, which was not... You know, all the things you've built up in your head to, like, be the first in your family to go to college, graduate college, and Mhmm. What's next. And then the job market is challenging. My first job was in a nonprofit. You know, I was working in schools and, you know, part... Very much leadership and empowerment through service. So there was a lot of different service opportunities for kids. I was in the schools, you know, working with said kids, and it was great.

Alex Cantu: It was a great first job. Okay. And it kinda launched a career in something that I wasn't sure. I... You know, Mad Men was a big show when I was a kid. I wanted to do that. I studied marketing. I'm like, this is gonna be great.

Ron Rapatalo: Oh, you you can go down a Mad Men rabbit hole. That is when my... I've watched it twice in succession from, like, episode one to the last episode.

Alex Cantu: Love that. That's a minute. I'm on once. Just once. Okay. Okay. But I was never gonna be good at that. Like, now now I can see that, like, I was never gonna be a good ad man. But you know traveling the state doing different policy things. I worked in policy for a little while after direct service.

Alex Cantu: After policy work I did some grant and compliance and a little bit of financial consulting and you know, found my way through these generalist opportunities. But it started because what I thought my career was gonna be, which is in this big corporate environment Yeah. Is actually not what it was gonna be at all. It was actually gonna be in social impact. It was gonna be in service. And that decision totally made for a different life that I'm really happy that I made.

Ron Rapatalo: Yeah. Know, if I always like to ask these, like, very Barbara Walters-esque questions on Ronderings. Right? If Alex today in his COO role, right, this generalist role in social impact that you are thriving in, were to talk to College Alex, who's like, love Mad Men. Oh my god. And be in marketing. Right? What advice would you give to College Alex?

Alex Cantu: That's such a good question. I should have been ready for that to come on a podcast. Like, that's a good podcast question.

Ron Rapatalo: It's... I watch it. I've watched enough interviews in my 51 of life to, like, have some of these, like, I didn't ask you if you were a tree, what kind of tree you would be. I have asked the derivative of that question at least once or twice, but I'm not gonna ask you that.

Alex Cantu: Oh, funny. You know, I think I would be... I would tell college Alex to be confident and be yourself sooner than it took you. You know, I think there's a period of everyone's career where you're not confident. Like, am I supposed to be here?

Alex Cantu: Do I actually know what I'm talking about? Right. And the speed at which it took me to figure out, like, actually be confident. Show up in the room. You have an idea. Raise your hand.

Alex Cantu: Say the say the idea. You know, it wasn't till I had that first manager when I was, like, 25 years old who believed in my ideas.

Ron Rapatalo: Oh, look at that.

Alex Cantu: And I was like, yeah. You've got this. Why are you asking me for permission or support or feedback? Like, you've done all the things. Go forth and do. I'm here to support you if you need, but you've got this. And that took that took too long.

Ron Rapatalo: Wow. Thanks for sharing that. I'm sure that we can go back into the time machine or use Doc's DeLorean from Back to the Future. Yes. I dated myself because I watched that movie god knows how many times, one of my favorite movies, that college Alex would love to hear that advice. Yeah. So let me zoom out now. So one of the questions, admittedly, in my full time job outside of podcasting, I've been asking people that I will ask you since you are in a CEO seat in a social impact organization is... I'm gonna ask you to do a little bit of, like, analysis here because I'm curious to pick your brain here. I'm gonna be be a little selfish here and use podcast time to do this.

Ron Rapatalo: Right? Is what leadership and talent challenges are you seeing, Alex, in the next six to ten, twelve months in this space? I don't wanna put you in the spot and have you talk about Surge because, obviously, that stuff that's gonna be for y'all, but, like, in the space generally.

Alex Cantu: Yeah. In the space, I think we have a need to retain top talent in the nonprofit sector. I think uncertainty is bad for any market. Like, can see, you can pull up the Yeah. You know, whatever Wall Street Journal, and it'll talk about the market was up or down, and it's because people are worried about x, y, and z. Yeah. AI, oil, whatever. And I think from a talent standpoint, and if we think about our labor market, the nonprofit sector is going to have uncertainty for a little while. What are we funding? What is the role of government within the nonprofit sector?

Alex Cantu: What is the... My government grant contract is a conversation we're going to have. You know? All of those things create uncertainty.

Alex Cantu: And if I'm a person who really cares about the social impact work, I care about mission. You know? I'm here for the vision. I wanna work in this space, but I also have a family. And I also have commitments and obligations. Yeah. I'm gonna pick the thing that has the most certainty sometimes. And the leadership challenge right now is to... What is the level of transparency? What is the level of optimism?

Alex Cantu: Telling our teams what they need to know so that they can make decisions about their careers. I think there's... And when you are in that honest space, I think people choose to stay. People choose to want to continue in this work. But that doesn't mean it's not challenging. So retention, I think, retaining our best talent in this sector is gonna be a big part of our conversation in the next six to twelve months.

Ron Rapatalo: How are you thinking about that in your role, retaining top talent?

Alex Cantu: I think about... You know, I approach so much of our, and we have a, at Surge, we have an incredible director of operations, Lisa Spurlach. She spends a lot of time thinking about this too. What I always think is, you know, competitive advantage because you want it is part of being an incredible place to work. Think if you want the best mission, the best vision, the best impact, the best things, you have to have really strong internal results.

Alex Cantu: Do people have what they need to thrive and do their job? Do people enjoy working here? We talked about at Surge in our last two employee satisfaction surveys. 100% of our team agrees or strongly disagrees with the phrase, I'm proud to work at the Surge Institute. Wow. I want them to be 100% all the time. Oh, yeah. Because when we're proud, we have great impact on kids, families, and communities.

Ron Rapatalo: Yeah. That sense of... That belief in what you're doing and wanting to puff your chest out, I think, is so important this day and age. You talked about that optimism positivity where with everything going on, it's easy to see all the bad stuff that's going on. But how do you see I like to describe it as the aperture or possibilities got smaller, but it's still there. You just have to... You have to look a lot harder. It's there.

Alex Cantu: Oh, yeah. And you and I have been around in this space long enough to know, like, how many times have we been through a hard time?

Ron Rapatalo: Oh my god.

Alex Cantu: How... You know, we've done that. Right? How many times?

Ron Rapatalo: Way too many times.

Alex Cantu: And we're still here. Still in the space.

Ron Rapatalo: Amen. Yeah.

Alex Cantu: We're still doing good work. I... You know, the the challenge is retention, but it is a challenge that we can overcome if we if we work at it.

Ron Rapatalo: Yeah. So let let me get into, like, the the prognosticating space with you now. What big bets would you make for the social impact space, the nonprofit space, these next three to five years with all the dots that you have at your disposal right now? How would you connect them these next three to five years?

Alex Cantu: You know, I am still in... The big bet is skill building within organizations. That is my biggest bet that I'm placing. You know, in my work at the Surge Institute, in our work as Surge as a... We focus on leadership development, supporting leaders in education. My big bet is developing leaders. I think... And when I mean specific, there's a lot of different skills that I think we need. We need grit, we need resilience, we need community, we need all of those things. But I'm also directly talking about artificial intelligence too.

Alex Cantu: Yeah. I think our sector orients to it differently. Surge has 25 team members. We are at a lean organization already. AI is a force multiplier thing. We don't use it to, find efficiencies and reduce the size of our organization and things like that. Ours is a force multiplier. Like, we're in the impact game. The more things we have to grow our impact, the better.

Ron Rapatalo: Yeah. Gino. I'm trying to think where I wanted to go with these big bets.

Alex Cantu: What big bets are you making? Yeah.

Ron Rapatalo: That's a really good question. I mean, I think, you know, the one thing that we started... And this is, like, my Stronger Consulting hat, Alex. I'm glad you asked that question to me. So now now you get to be the podcast host. You should have your own podcast, by the way. Seriously, y'all... With all the great, amazing talent, I'm sure that y'all probably talked about it. You know, it's just funding and so...

Ron Rapatalo: And, you know, getting... But, like, y'all have such rich talent and such a unique culture that I really... Like, I would strongly advise Surge, as you can fit it within your priorities of the many priorities you have, is it's one of the best ways to showcase all the work that you do, particularly through your lumps and fellows. But one of the big bets that we made at Stronger, we started a mergers and acquisitions business. Right?

Ron Rapatalo: Because... And it's not necessarily because every org is gonna need m and a. It's really about getting them through the process to see if they're even ready for it, and so to have them go through that process. Right? And so, you know, when I watched the space eighteen months ago before we put it on our website, right, and the story I like to tell is I was at South by Southwest EDU. A New York City ED buddy of mine, after chatting him up, casually told me, hey, Ron. Our nonprofit is looking to acquire blah blah blah blah blah blah. If you know anybody, let me know. I swear to goodness, in twenty years, I didn't have a single ED ever tell me that. Yeah.

Ron Rapatalo: It just was not something I would hear in the space of, like, you know what I'm saying? I certainly wasn't probably that altitude ten years ago, but certainly I am now. So I was just like, woah. That's fascinating. And then go... Being at South by for Boulder Fund final selection through EdLoC, talk to Sharhonda about what she was hearing from members around, like, yeah, a lot of senior leaders in EDs are hitting her up, and so they started the series that year in 2025 around M and A that was happening within membership. And so then that summer, I then got hit up of like, hey. Stronger running an M and A business? I was like, No. This person was like, You should.

Ron Rapatalo: I was like, Oh. And so once again, don't know how to prop up an M and A business. I'm not anywhere near a content expert, even though there's a lot of M and A that just reminds you of, like, doing good research and valuation and some, like, match... Matchmaking. Right? This kind of how I've seen it. Right? And so I presented that to my boss, the c... My CEO, Mike Montoya. I was like, that's what I'm hearing on the street.

Ron Rapatalo: I really think you should consider it. So he went through his network and then fast forward, took a little bit, but now it's something that we have actively on our website. Right? That is a business line because, certainly, surprise, surprise, what's happening that we talked about earlier in the social impact sector? And that's not just nonprofits, but this is charters, right? We could also do this for charters technically, right? Is there is necessary consolidation. There's not enough the the funding is too ambiguous, and it's much less to be able to sustain everybody's in the space. It's necessitating a conversation of, like... And I think from what I hear, I on two charter school boards, and I sit on a nonprofit board.

Ron Rapatalo: I talk to fellow board members. I talk to a lot of senior leaders. Everybody seems to be having that conversation at least to explore. Doesn't mean you say, we're looking to be acquired, but, like, people are having that conversation more so than usual. Like, I think everybody is. You have to. Even if you're thriving because you might be on the acquiring side, to be clear.

Ron Rapatalo: Transcend just acquired Gradient Learning a number in early February. That's, like, one public one I know because I saw it happen. Right? You know? And there's other ones they're gonna be hitting. Right? And so that's, like, I think a big bet. Like, from a business line, it's like to do that. Right? And I think, you know, the other one that, you know, my brilliant friends at Catalyst Exchange, shout out Leona Christie, Karen McGuire, many others there, right, is I think part of, like, our consulting line of business, right, and what I think the sector really needs, which I think is gonna be music serious as COO Alex, is capacity building.

Ron Rapatalo: Right? Part of that is skill building. Right? Because when you said that, that makes a lot of sense because that goes through retention efforts. If you're given an opportunity to live mission and you're getting something out of it that is making you perform better, that is kind of a inherent, like, human thing. Like, I am on the road to mastering something. That makes people feel good in social impact organizations, any company. Right? But you know what I'm also finding is the opposite of that. Like, kind of anecdotally.

Ron Rapatalo: Right? When you're doing more with less, what happens? I gotta hire the person. Just get shit done. I can't skill build them. I got time to develop you. I'm trying to do five things. Right? You know what I'm saying? It's very easy to forget that. So I think... I appreciate you asking me that question. What I wanna ask for you would like back to the skill building, Alex, is how do you make sure that's prioritized in an organization where... Look. You guys are lean. Right? And I think for any nonprofit, we're just like, Alex, I hear what you're saying. Got the time or the capacity to even think about it. I would love to do it, but we are trying to stay afloat.

Alex Cantu: Yeah. I mean, I think learning happens in a lot of different ways in organizations. You know? And I think the... You know, whether it's learning about m and a or learning about different skills we need, which, by the way, I'm a big proponent of m and a. We should talk about that at some point. We should. Yes. But I think in terms of how our Surge operations team, two things help us learn. Some of it is intentional. To learn... To work with me is often to read with me. Our team reads books together.

Ron Rapatalo: Oh, that's good.

Alex Cantu: Good for you, man. Okay. We definitely do that. Nice. Some team members are audiobook folks, but we have a discussion. We read at least one books a year. Last year, we read two. Last year, we read Brené Brown, and Dan Heath's book, called Switch. And, you know, this year, I don't... We haven't quite decided. Our fiscal year just started, so we'll pick a new book. But... So I think there... There's intentional learning through that.

Alex Cantu: But I think the other intentional learning is through experimentation.

Alex Cantu: In ops, we're not perfect, but I think there needs to be room to fail, to try things, and to have it not work out.

Alex Cantu: And if you really wanna be a learning organization, then that has to be okay. Like, actually... As our small operations team, we do... Our quarterly share out is what went well and what didn't go well. And we celebrate both equally because you tried something, and maybe it didn't work. Maybe the goal was too ambitious or I didn't quite, you know, talk to this person or what... For whatever the reason your initiative didn't work out. That is okay. Nothing bad happened because it... You know, in fact, you were celebrated for giving something a try.

Alex Cantu: I think there's learning and skill building that happens with that.

Ron Rapatalo: Sounds like what happens on the pitch. Right? Unless you're willing to take that shot and get into the box, right, and make that run, you just... You know, when I... What... I mean, I'm not at the most avid socket... Soccer watcher like a lot of Americans who watch soccer. I watch it during World Cup. But I'm good enough to understand when I watch soccer, right, I just like watching. You can dance the ball around the perimeter, and then you wait for the opportunity.

Ron Rapatalo: Right? And it takes... When do you find that hole? When is someone gonna make that run? Right? So at the very least, it's not about necessarily getting a shot on goal. What do you get? You know the soccer line. You go get a corner kick. If you get a corner kick, you set up an opportunity. Maybe something else happens. You get fouled, and you get a free kick. Yeah. Right? And then you get to see some of the most amazing bends on soccer ball.

Ron Rapatalo: I'm just like, how is that even possible? So many shots. It's just like the the absolute... But even to, like, take that shot and the skill building that it takes to get there, there's a lot of, like, powerless leadership there. Was just like, if you don't, like, take that shot and have... Like, you have to make something happen. The defense isn't just gonna give you something. You've gotta stop, like... You gotta push.

Alex Cantu: Well, in solving, you know, the challenges that the social impact sector is trying to solve for is about courage, and it's about getting in the arena, getting in penalty box, doing all the things. You gotta get in there Yeah. You know, in order to really make impact happen.

Ron Rapatalo: Yeah. I I really do see a soccer refereeing leadership podcast from you, man, or some reflection thoughts, man, because, yeah, I I I know we just touched the tip of the iceberg in terms of, like, your twenty plus years of soccer refereeing, but I can see why it keeps you so calm. And, like, when I met you at the... Like, you're just really chill and grounded. You know what I'm saying? Which I I could see that's why people are attracted to be around you. That's not... And this is something like we're both people persons. Right? So I think we we measure that pretty quickly.

Ron Rapatalo: Right? But that's something in my people brain. I'm always looking for, like, what is it about someone that, like, gets someone to be around them? Right? And then you think about our homegirl TSJ. Right? TSJ is just like... She's just magnet of, like, energy. You know what I'm saying? I love that about her. You know what I'm saying? But, like, that's a different way to attract people. It's kinda similar to, like, my approach.

Ron Rapatalo: Right? But, like, because you're so calm, cool, and collected and generous, I think that's what attracts people to you in the way... Minh, because you live your life and lead that way. So I just wanted to thank you for that, man.

Alex Cantu: I appreciate that, Ron. That's very kind. Yeah. Absolutely. Tons of people. And for the folks and others, tons of people who are better suited for that referee podcast. Also, the best referees are often teachers. So that's also a plug for folks like, if you taught and you like sports, go referee. You're gonna be great at it.

Ron Rapatalo: They... Yes. Because it's about teaching those rules and those things about... Like, because in in essence, like, the people that are playing are trying to do their best. Right? But it's just, like, sometimes you don't. And it's like, hey. This is what you did. Because I could... Like, one of the sports I watch a lot of the refereeing and player dynamic is basketball. Right? To see Oh, yeah. Best referees are all like, you know, and, like, I think when players approach it right and you don't blow up and act crazy, right, it becomes this tea. Like, hey. Can I ask you about the?

Ron Rapatalo: You know, I got a foul... You didn't see... It just then becomes a, oh, okay. And then, like, helps plant a seed of, they're gonna look out for a little bit more. It becomes sometimes it's a teaching moment for the referee too.

Alex Cantu: Right? Absolutely.

Ron Rapatalo: Wow. So we've hit that time of the podcast because we're about forty five plus minutes in for the Rondering question. So what is the lesson or value you wanna share with the audience today?

Alex Cantu: I think the thing that, you know, I've been talking with folks the most is... And it kinda leads into the communication that we've been talking about. But Yeah. You know, really encouraging folks that the budgets we create and the business plans and the operating plans, whatever they're... Whatever we call them, are so critical now more than ever. Because their strap plans, who knows what's gonna happen in a five year strap plan right now. Right? Three year strap plan.

Alex Cantu: Like, just talking about more. Recently. Yes. Right? Like, no one's doing that. And so I think the the plans we make year over year are high stakes. So what I'm really encouraging folks in my Rondering is about how are we incorporating storytelling into these pieces. You know, how... You know, what I challenged my COO and CFO colleagues to is how can you have one spreadsheet for your entire budget and the rest is narrative? Like, what if you really had to boil down to, you know, what is our legacy? What is the change mandate for this year? And what is our rigorous way forward?

Alex Cantu: Like, really drilling down your budget narrative and using that to be successful instead of, like, the passive of monitoring my budget spreadsheets and seeing if we're gonna get there, you know, our our our finance team of Monica, Mara, and myself at Surge, like, we're storytellers. We help folks, you know, tell the story of their finances. Mhmm.

Ron Rapatalo: I love that reframing. Right? And it makes me wonder if I shout out someone else that I know and I gotta get him on on Ronderings. Right? But do you know Michael McGregor? He was the COO at Equitable Finance Shop, he's a managing partner. I think it's called the Children's First Something. I'm not remembering. But he... You probably have heard of Seminar. Right? And so Seminar does a lot of, like, professional development, in particular, I think, in the charter space.

Ron Rapatalo: Right? And so he is running a work... A bunch of, like, workshops on strategic financial leadership. And the idea of storytelling, I feel like, was embedded there. Right? Or at least it... Well, I'm sure it will be. Right? But, like, that's such a big part of it. Right? You just it's not the numbers, but it's the translation of what those numbers mean for what you're trying to achieve, and then how you actually then communicate that said narrative in the numbers to your organization, your stakeholders. Right?

Ron Rapatalo: Because at end of all, the numbers are... They're numbers. Right?

Alex Cantu: Absolutely. Especially when... Once you really get into talking about students and cost per student. We talk about scaling in the charter world a lot, like how do you grow your school building. And a finance person can come in and we can start talking about fixed costs and variable costs and flex budgets. And I'm already starting to fall asleep. Right? But if you start talking to me about a story, like, what is the growth story of this charter school or this nonprofit organization? Like Mhmm. I think that is where over the next few years where COOs and CFOs are gonna be the most successful is how do I move beyond what my tables and spreadsheets say and really turn into a storyteller.

Alex Cantu: I've seen a lot of organize... And, you know, we talked we talked a lot about how, you know, COO roles are getting combined, lots of things coming underneath. That's also a trend in the private sector. I think it was Mhmm. You know, one of the big tech companies just turned their chief financial officer also into their chief strategy officer. I think a lot of Compassion. Artificial intelligence skill building is moving into the chief people or chief HR roles within organizations. Like, there's a lot of combinations happening as well, but I think it is because finance is becoming part of strategy.

Ron Rapatalo: Yeah. It always should have been. I mean, you know, hearing that, at least in the private sector, that AI starting take of the people in HR function, you know, the big worry that I have is what the effect on culture is gonna be. I think

Ron Rapatalo: I I I talked about it with a people friend of mine, and, you know, one of the big worries I have is, like, as those roles get more complicated and they're being asked to do things that are not also always about culture is... Because if the culture of the ordinary is... Like, if you think about this, like, I'm gonna point back, and I know this might hit a sore spot because you were born and raised in San Antonio, and I'm a Knicks fan.

Alex Cantu: Oh, no. You're like, Ron, I'm gonna you're like, Ron, I'm gonna stab you in the eye.

Ron Rapatalo: But it was a great series, by the way. Right? But you know what I'm saying? Like, if I think about... Look. Props to the Spurs organization because you wanna talk about, like, culture building on their pop, they're always gonna be in the mix because Culture is great. That man has set the tone, and it lives in everybody in that organization.

Ron Rapatalo: And I think too many entities don't pay attention to culture. I mean, I think a big reason why the Knicks won is because that culture really got set. Yes. Leon Rose and World Wide Wes, but Jalen and and the rest of the crew, they had each other's back. Talent was there. The culture Yeah. All hit the right spot. And I think it's one of those things where it's just like, you know, it's hard to put, like, numbers and analysis on that thing. So I've always taken it like, you you know it, you feel it when you know it's there, and it's good. Mhmm. So

Alex Cantu: Oh, I totally agree. And, you know, if we think about, like, why did this... You know, everyone talked about the Spurs being ahead. You know, they outperformed what they were supposed to. I think that's culture. I think I'm gonna say this. Yeah. And it pains me as a Spurs fan. But the Knicks were a better team. I think we stayed in it, and we got as far as we did because of culture. And that's how we overperformed what we were supposed to perform. You know, I remind... There was this article posted recently, but it was about how there's two organizations within every organization. The one that leaders think they see, and then there's the actual organization that exists. And so much of that is not understanding your culture.

Alex Cantu: So going back to the HR person who's suddenly responsible for AI adoption, you know, what are you actually accountable to as a leader? Yeah. I would hope you were still accountable to your metrics around culture and accountable, and one's not more important than the other. But, you know, I think to get those impacting it, those results that you want out in the world and adding kids, families, and communities, you still need really strong culture.

Ron Rapatalo: Yeah. Well, I feel like I could go another hour with you in talking about culture, and I'm not because I'm very cognizant of time. So my last question for you, Alex, is what would you like to promote? How do people find you?

Alex Cantu: Oh, that's a great question. Yeah. You know, I think the thing to promote year round and then I think folks... And you talked about the Surge Institute. You know, first and foremost, I think, you know, folks plugging into Surge and thinking about, you know, of course, we have fellowships in Detroit, in Chicago, and we have alumni across the country, but even if you don't live in those cities, you know, check Surge out and you know, see what opportunities may exist for for you And if it's not Surge, I think that the other thing I would promote is just for leaders right now to take care of yourselves.

Alex Cantu: Find the things that are going to invest in you. Whether you're investing in you or the Surge Institute is investing in you, I think that those are really, really important.

Ron Rapatalo: Well, Alex, I appreciate you being on Ronderings this afternoon, as I thought we would have a incredible conversation that touched upon a number of different things that interested you and I. So I just wanted to thank you for that. And I always end my episodes in the words of one of my favorite sports heroes, Deion Sanders. We always come hot with amazing guests like Alex Cantu. Peace y'all. Thanks for listening to this episode of Ronderings. One idea I'll be carrying with me is Alex is invited to budgets, strategic plans, and operational decisions all tell a story. The numbers matter, but people follow narratives. As leaders, maybe our job isn't just to manage resources, help people understand where we're going, why it matters, and how they'll be part of getting there. If this conversation resonated with you, I encourage you to learn more about the incredible work happening at the Surge Institute, the leadership fellowships they're building across the country.

Ron Rapatalo: You're a leader yourself, Alex offered one challenge worth sitting with, invest in your own growth regardless of whether your organization asks you to. Thanks as always for spending part of your day with me. This conversation, please subscribe, leave a review, the episode with someone who believes leadership is less about having all the answers, more about asking better questions. Until next time, keep learning, leading with purpose, and keep rondering. Thank you for listening to today's Ronderings.

Ron Rapatalo: I enjoyed hanging out with me and my guests, and I hope you leave with something worth chewing on. If it made you smile, think, or even roll your eyes in a good way, pass it along to someone else. I'm Ron Rapatalo, until next time, keep rondering, keep laughing, and keep becoming. Podcaststhatmatter.org.